Tory Burch: I Didn't Realize It Was Negative to Be Ambitious | Aspire with Emma Grede

Start With Yourself is about self-leadership because wherever I go, women ask me how I got to where I am.

But what you really want to know is how you can get there.

So I'm doing what I do best, sharing and never gatekeeping what's worked for me in the hope that you can borrow from a philosophy that has served me so well.

The truth is, I'm not an expert.

I've just lived it.

I've made the mistakes, I've had the failures, and I've learned what actually works.

It takes a lot.

It takes the most.

And this book is for anyone who's tired of feeling like a passenger in their own life.

It's about taking responsibility for your thinking, managing your emotions, and getting clear on your ideas, and then knowing your next step.

It's about picking yourself up after failure, being accountable, but also forgiving yourself, pushing for wins, and never ever apologising for your ambition.

It's also about challenging the rules that you've been told.

There is no perfect time.

Balance isn't the goal, alignment is, and there's nothing wrong with you wanting more.

I'm precisely sure that the reason I've been so successful is so I can share it with you.

Start with Yourself, my debut book, is available now.

Visit emmagreede.com to purchase the book, also available on Amazon, your favourite audio platforms, and all good bookshops.

So today I'm speaking to Tory Burch, one of the founders that I admire the most.

Tory Burch has built an incredible American luxury brand worth billions of dollars.

What we're gonna talk about today is how she built a billion-dollar brand from her apartment in New York, why ambition is still a dirty word for women, and why she decided to step down

as CEO of her own company when so few women get to occupy that space.

You will not want to miss this episode.

And whatever you do, don't forget to like and subscribe.

I haven't had lunch in 21 years.

Tory Burch has redefined American luxury and built one of the most recognizable brands in fashion.

The brand spans 70 countries with over 5,000 employees.

Flying back and forth to Asia, managing 3 boys, working out of my apartment, going to 120 friends and family.

And I was terrified about taking people's money.

And then it got so much harder.

A very public divorce, but then also a very public lawsuit where he decided to build a brand that looked like a cheap version of our brand.

I mean, I will tell you, I remember when that happened.

COVID closed 375 of her stores overnight.

I get better and more focused in a crisis.

22 years in, Tory Burch is the blueprint for what it takes to build a brand that lasts.

Whatever ambition means to you, whether it's being a stay-at-home mom or a CEO, it's really about living on your own terms.

What advice would you give to a woman who's been labeled as too

ambitious?

Tory Burch, welcome to Aspire.

Oh, I'm so happy to be here.

Thank you.

I am so happy to have you.

I've wanted you to come on this show for the longest time.

Me too, and I can't even believe it hasn't even been that long.

It feels like Wow.

It's really true.

We're coming up to almost a year, but you were one of the people that I wanted to speak to so much because I always, in my own life and my own career, I like to project myself in your

kind of lane and say, you know, if Tori can do it, you can do it, Emma.

She's got all of these children and this company.

You've done it so well.

When I think about you and what you've done, you've built one of America's most iconic fashion brands, which is so incredible.

We're talking billions of dollars in sales, 400 stores around the world, which is so incredible.

A true global brand.

And I've been reading and researching so much about you, and I really want to take people back to the beginning and to understand exactly where you were when you decided to go and do

that friends and family round, take a bet on yourself.

It takes such an enormous amount of ambition, and I just want you to take me back into that moment and tell me, where were you and why did you how did you have such certainty that you

could actually do this?

Yeah, well, let's start with I had a career that I loved and I was working for LVMH, working for Loewe, and I got pregnant with my third son.

So I had three babies under the age of four, three boys under the age of four.

Wow.

And so I was traveling to Paris and Spain and realized that I wouldn't be able to be a great mom.

So I had to make one of those decisions that a lot of women have to.

And it was really, choosing being a mom over a career.

And that was a really hard choice.

I mean, it wasn't hard to choose being a great mom, but it was hard to give up a career that I loved.

And so it was during the time that I was a stay-at-home mom that I worked on this concept because I knew I wanted to go back to work.

I just didn't know what that work would be.

So in tandem, I was working on a school, starting a school, and I was also working on starting a company.

And it was about reviving a company from the '60s and '70s that my mom used to wear.

It was called JAX.

Really?

Yeah.

That's what you were going to do?

I was going to do it.

I worked on it for months and decided finally that the school would go off to the side.

I would try to start this company.

And there was this great entrepreneur named Sally Hansen, and she had hired Rudy Gernreich, who was the designer at the time.

They started this company called Jaxx.

And the best way to describe it is like it was great pieces that were impossible to find.

Right.

And Audrey Hepburn wore it, Jackie O, all these incredibly stylish people.

What happened to Jaxx?

And so it went out of business, but I had a lot of— the clothes because my mother wore it.

And so I did all of this research, I spent months on it, and I got in touch with this incredible woman named Corby who used to run their New York showroom.

She ended up getting me in touch with Sally Hansen.

And after months of work and a giant presentation, I got her on the phone.

Are we talking Sally Hansen, like— Hard as nails?

Yes, yes.

That Sally Hansen?

That Sally Hansen.

She's an incredible entrepreneur.

And so I called her, I got every bit of courage up to give her a call, and 30 seconds later I realized it was a hard no.

Really?

And so that's when—

How'd you take that?

I was just blown away because no didn't occur to me.

And so I thought it was going to be a given that it would be called Jack's and it was, so I had to start over.

Did you immediately decide, okay, I'm gonna go and do my own thing?

Like how long did it take you?

So when you've got a vision for something and then you get that type of knockback, sometimes that can be hard to take.

Like what did you do?

I went and I started to think about branding and then I hired a branding company and I started to think about an interior designer called David Hicks that was in London.

He was a big inspiration.

My parents had books on him.

My mother loved his work.

And I was like, okay, if I'm going to do a company, I didn't want it to be my name.

I was trying to get so many different names, none of which I could get.

I launched with a terrible name and also a logo.

And it was because I couldn't get Jax.

And that was why, that was the start of me doing my own thing.

Are you absolutely kidding?

So it was totally unintentional.

It was not my plan, but I had to pick it.

That is so crazy.

So how did it turn into Tory Burch, your name, and this kind of initial friends and family round that you were now in?

Well, so that takes a little bit of a while.

I started it with my ex-husband who had a history of a company called Eagle's Eye.

So he, he did the production in Hong Kong and I, so he had that knowledge.

So we, we started this company.

I had this logo, people had so many different opinions.

I had this idea.

It was very, it was contrary to everything that people had told me to do.

So it was a direct-to-consumer concept.

It was an e-commerce site.

Oh, direct-to-consumer.

Moment, which year was this?

It was 2004.

Okay.

So I was planning in 2003, but no one was selling online.

So people told me no one would ever buy online.

So I launched with an out-of-the-way store down on Elizabeth Street and an e-commerce site.

And the very first day we realized we were onto something.

What was it that gave you that idea?

You know, it was just, it was, first of all, the work leading up to that was excruciating.

It was like flying back and forth to Asia, managing 3 boys, working outta my apartment.

So there are all these things that went into it.

Opening day, it was, I had grown up in fashion and had this great career.

So it was press, it was friends, family, and we opened 10 in the morning till 6 at night.

And it was almost as if it was building throughout the day.

People were hearing about it and then coming down.

It was during Fashion Week.

Just what you want.

That word of mouth, it just is tracking, it's bubbling.

Never could I have imagined or planned.

It just was one of these things that just sort of started to take shape.

And we realized we basically sold through our inventory.

What were you imagining at that point in time?

Like, did you have a vision that it could be anything like it is today?

Well, I had— I hear myself and some of the things I said, and I, at the time, in retrospect, had no idea what I was talking about.

I said I wanted to build a global lifestyle brand so I could start a foundation.

That was my— that was my— I heard people told you not to say that.

Everyone told me not to say it.

They're like, just leave the foundation part out.

They patted me like, oh, that's charity work.

And they said, that is just the worst idea.

But I had this like vision and I don't know exactly how I got to this point, but I knew that I had this feeling that purpose and business went hand in hand.

And if you could, doing good is good for business.

And that was sort of my theory.

Yeah, I mean, that was really early on.

And I remember when we started Good American, we had the same, I remember looking at your brand and saying to our, bored at that point, I was like, well, Tory's doing it.

Like, and you were the only ones that were doing it and doing it successfully.

There was someone else.

They were like, park it for now.

You know who else is?

TOMS.

I was kind of— yeah, TOMS was maybe around the same time, although it was just— yeah, because it was like a single, you know, it was like just this one shoe.

It felt different, but we were really benchmarking.

I remember in the beginning going like, there is so— like, Tory is doing this and she seems to be like making a business out of it.

Doing my best, I'm not sure.

Um, you said early on that you didn't feel like a designer.

Like, how long did

How long did it take you to kind of own that part of you?

I would say, you know, a long time.

I have to say I didn't have, I didn't go to business school, I didn't go to design school.

So for me to consider myself a designer just because I started a company, it was a stretch in my own imagination.

I didn't feel like it, I didn't feel it internally.

So it was kind of, you mentioned in one of your notes imposter syndrome.

I don't know that I had that, but I didn't feel that I had earned it.

And I felt like I had to get the knowledge.

And throughout the years, I would say, Probably 10 years until I felt I had the technical skillset where I really felt like I was a competent designer.

You started the company with your husband.

Yeah.

And that's no longer the arrangement that you have now.

So I'm interested to understand what was kind of happening behind the scenes there.

Yeah, I mean, it was rough.

I had this idea, it was us putting a lot of money into it from our personal funds that was not a tremendous amount, but for us at the time it was.

And then going to 120 friends and family family.

And I was, first of all, terrified about taking people's money.

It kept me up.

And that was one of the things that kept me up every night.

And I just said to them, invest what you can lose, because I was really worried that I'm starting— doing a startup.

That was my pitch.

But I said, listen, this is what I'm going to do, but don't put in money that you don't have to lose because it's a risk.

And I'm a careful risk-taker, but I am a risk-taker.

And so we, we started— he never worked with me in the in the office, but he helped me set the whole company up.

But what we realized, or what I realized very early on, is fundamentally we were incredibly different the way we saw building a brand.

And I can say that now because, you know, we're great friends now, but it was incredibly rough for a long time.

Yeah, I mean, people say don't go into business with your significant other.

I can't say that because so far it's working out all right, quote unquote.

Well, and I can't say that now.

But yeah, there was a moment there where I imagine that was so much stress on your family.

Oh, it was horrible.

It was horrible.

I mean, going through, well, two things, a very public divorce and having 6 kids that I love dearly and wanted to protect and being a very private person, but then also a very public

lawsuit where he decided to build a brand that looked like a cheap version of our brand.

I mean, I will tell you, I remember when that happened.

It was shocking.

It was shocking.

But it was like the talk of the town.

Like it was a thing.

And I remember even, that was like in the early days when I'd really started to understand investing.

And I knew people around me that had kind of been like, well, here's the next Tory Burch.

And I was like, hang about one second.

I mean, it was bad.

He would say things in a board meeting like, you're a PR girl.

It was really bad.

And so I can laugh with him about it now because he told me it was a 10-year misunderstanding.

And so we've moved on.

Sorry.

Very eloquent way to put it.

I've always wanted to get along with him.

He's the father of my children.

Of my— and he's great and I adore him now, but what he put me through is just hard to believe.

How did you have the confidence and I guess the wherewithal to understand how you were gonna get yourself out of that situation?

Because right now it kind of feels like you're sitting on top of the world, but I imagine at that time it's very difficult when somebody literally sets up what was perceived outwardly

to be your competition.

You obviously have a family together and so the dynamics are really difficult.

So as a business person, how did you even I mean, how did you deal with all of that?

I mean, I feel like work was a bit of a refuge and a safety.

It was, for me, I've always wanted to think about culture and an environment for women.

And I, in a way, built that for myself.

And it was a place where I could go and feel safe.

And not that it was unsafe being with him, but it was a terrible time.

And so I think that I had this relentless drive.

I'm not sure exactly where that came from.

I think I might.

I always, in, you know, thinking a lot about our conversation, I thought a lot about ambition and I've always been ambitious, even though I didn't realize that's what I was.

Like even from working at Benetton in high school or starting a sorority at Penn or whatever it was, I didn't realize that I was, it was a negative to be that way until this article

in the New York Times was written on me and I shied away from that word, so.

Will you just speak a little bit for anyone who hasn't seen that article?

Will you talk about that for me?

So there was an article the first year of our business and it said, "Call Her a Socialite." And it was, I recently reread it thinking about our talk.

And so the journalist asked me if I was ambitious.

And at the time it was a very derogatory expression for women.

And so I clearly shied away from the word in the article.

Jane Rosenthal called me up and she said, "Great article.

Don't you ever shy away from your ambition." And it was something that was like a light switch for me.

It was immediate.

I realized she was absolutely right.

You're absolutely right.

I was mad at myself because I prided myself on thinking I could do anything a man could do.

I never, it never occurred to me that I shouldn't be proud of being ambitious.

So it became sort of something I wanted to really clear up for me and for women.

I love that, and clear it up you did, because I think it's really interesting having just come out of this process of writing this book and now releasing the book.

Ambition is such a tricky subject for so many women, and the negative connotations Even now, 20 years later, are still there.

When we talk about a man's ambition, we conjure up all of these images of somebody great and exciting.

And as soon as we say she's ambitious, we're maybe thinking about a little bit of a bitch somehow.

She's rough, she's a bitch.

She's like— All of those things.

Distasteful.

How much do you think has changed in that time?

I think it hasn't changed enough.

And if I'm really analyzing it, I think if you ask my 3 boys, they think it's changed, which is interesting, but— I love that.

I know.

I'll take it.

And that's a bit of hope, I think.

I think it's also the pressure you put on yourself and we as women put on ourselves and believe in these negative stereotypes.

And that's something that we need to stop and collectively and support each other.

But we need men to support us too.

Yeah, we need all the things.

I don't wanna have the conversation with just women because we'll get nowhere.

Well, I mean, I think that's a really, really fair point.

I remember years ago when Sheryl Sandberg wrote Lean In, I went out, at the time I ran an agency, And I went out and bought it for every woman in my organisation, read the first 3 chapters

and went back out and bought it for every man.

And so when I think— Yeah, that's great.

When I think about my own book, I'm like, this needs to be something that men read and something that women also read.

I don't want it to go one way because as you quite rightly say, we need men.

We need men in so many different ways in business.

You're such an expert in what it actually takes to create a brand and build a business.

So let's go back to those early days when you went and did that friends and family round.

You're calling 120 people.

20 people to actually ask them to invest.

What, like, what were you saying?

What were you thinking?

What were you pitching?

I mean, I had this goal in a way and vision to, and I was determined.

I think even our biggest investor who told me never to say purpose in business, like I called him maybe 3 years ago and I said, it's so funny you said that.

I still remember that expression you said to me.

And I just came from a conference doing good is good for business.

And he's like, okay, what do you want?

And I said a check for the foundation, naturally.

I mean, there were so many things that happened constantly of, you know, things that you were being put in your place or things that you shouldn't say quite like that, or you should

think this way.

I think it was a lot of noise to me.

That's one thing I learned from my parents is that negativity is noise.

And so I learned to tune things out and I learned to be a good listener, but take it in, but not necessarily take it to heart.

And not take it personally.

And you know, more often than not, not take it personally.

Of course, sometimes it gets personal and I try to not be emotional, particularly in a board meeting.

I've learned that lesson.

It's much more effective.

It's much more effective.

I just wanna be more effective.

I can't say that I haven't cried outside many a board meeting.

Yeah, but I had to learn that.

I mean, you can imagine what I went through in a board with— I remember one of our partners told my ex-husband to leave it at the door.

Wow.

So I really like that.

Wow, that's just incredible.

Yeah, but it was hard, the beginning, you know, some people would look at me and say, "Do you go to the office?" I haven't had lunch in 21 years.

I can't even imagine.

I work as hard, if not harder than anyone.

And it's been, it's been this incredible journey.

It's work that I love, so it doesn't feel like work, but it's shocking sometimes to think people like question that and think that it just happened out of thin air.

I love that they asked you that 'cause I think I'm asked on average once a day, including today, "Do you actually work here?" And I'm like, "5 days a week." But that's something they

would never say to a man.

Ever.

So.

Ever.

That sums it up.

Which is, you know, and I don't want to sound whiny, but I think that the, you know, I'm looking, thinking about an article that came out yesterday, which was the first article about

my book.

And the headline was, a headline that would never be written about a man, about how long I would choose to spend with my children every day.

And I just thought, wow.

That's brilliant.

I haven't seen that headline.

A very, very reputable newspaper, I will tell you, not trash, you know, magazine stuff.

And it's interesting to me.

That's why it bothers me.

I'm curious if they did.

Did they list your age?

Absolutely.

Because they never do that with men.

That's something I want to clear up as well.

It's crazy.

It's crazy.

It's crazy.

Every article that's ever been written about me lists my age.

And they have— I've never seen an article on a man where they list their age.

Have you?

I'm really thinking about it now.

They don't list men's ages.

But how dare they say that to you?

They're not my hours.

I kind of shrugged it off because— You should.

It was one of those moments where the internet did what the internet does best, and every single woman was in the comments saying, what is this all about?

I would comment myself.

That's crazy.

What is this all about?

I wanna go back and talk to you about this, because you were starting in e-commerce when no one, especially in the luxury space, was really in it.

What was it that you saw that perhaps other brands missed?

I mean, for me, it was a scrappy way of reaching our customer.

Mm-hmm.

And so I had to be resourceful because we didn't have big budgets.

We didn't have a lot of money.

We started on a little shop on Elizabeth Street because the rent was so cheap.

There was nothing there.

And that's why I used social media and PR to build the company.

We never— we never did traditional advertising.

Advertising because we didn't have the budget.

So we had to be resourceful, as I said.

So that was sort of how we started that.

It's so interesting because it feels like, you know, it's only 20 years ago, but it was a different time entirely.

And you were like a real first mover in that space.

But I'm interested in understanding like what you chose in terms of categories and expansion.

Like who gave you that blueprint?

Well, no one did.

In fact, from day one, I launched with 10 categories and I was told not to do that.

So, and just the idea of course I mentioned direct-to-consumer, but for me it was lifestyle.

And I think everything from a strategic standpoint that I started with is still relevant today.

Interesting.

And that's exciting because we launched with 10 categories.

So then we sort of built them through time, but I was early adopters of technology.

It was something I'm still obsessed with.

I think it's so, I mean, when you look at what's happening now, it's kind of hard to decide what to do and what to jump onto.

Back then, when you think you had an e-commerce site,

revolutionary.

So that was one thing, Instagram.

Then you had Twitter, but I was on it and I was really interested in thinking, how do you use this to connect with people?

I remember because I think at one point you guys were working with one of our agencies.

I think you were working Wednesday, and we were like, wow, like Tory Burch is like— so you guys, you guys were there too.

Yeah, we were there, we were there too.

But again, there was not much competition and we were usually explaining it to brands.

Well, it seems like— this is what an influencer is.

They kind of thought like maybe it's low level, it's not sophisticated.

And it was just changing.

The world was changing.

So tell me a little bit about the catalyst for the brand really taking off, because I think about two things.

I think about this big Oprah moment.

And then I think about the shoe.

And you could not walk down— The shoe, my mother.

The shoe, your mother, the Reebok.

But you couldn't walk down the street without seeing that bloody flat absolutely everywhere.

And I remember like I would go go to Selfridges and there would just be a queue of women waiting for this shoe in any color that they could possibly get their hands on, which is so

crazy to me.

It's so crazy.

I mean, listen, Oprah was the first year of business and Adam Glassman was a friend and we worked together and he gave Oprah some clothes for Christmas and they were doing a show on

The Next Big Thing.

And when they first called me, I thought it was a joke.

I have 3 brothers, we are constantly playing practical jokes.

I'm like, oh, okay, playing along with it.

And so I realized it was real that they wanted me to come to Chicago and be on the show and have a fashion show.

And so I'll never forget it because when I saw Oprah, she's like, "Well, you've been on TV before?" I'm like, "No." And so she said, "Don't worry, it's only 8 million." No, 30 million

viewers.

And so, but what was great is I had an e-commerce site and they did explain how we had to back it up and it didn't crash.

We had 8 million hits the next day and the next following week.

And so we were prepared.

That was year one.

Year one.

So talk me through, how did things then scale?

Like, what did it actually look like for the business?

So we— I had a plan of, I think, 3 stores in the first 5 years.

It became 7.

And then it just went on from there.

But I was traveling nonstop.

I had these 3 babies, 3 boys growing, and trying to be CEO and creative and manage both.

How did you do it?

How did you take your family and what was going on in your personal life and this incredible brand that was on such a crazy trajectory?

How did you do it?

You know, I think I am very good at compartmentalizing, and I also have this drive.

I think it's almost the opposite of my father, and he never had a proper job.

He He was taught that he didn't have to work.

And so my brothers and I all saw that, and we went the opposite way, and it gave me more drive.

But at the same time, we saw money come and go, and I will never forget the conversations that I had with my mother saying, "You always need to be financially independent." And that's

something that she raised me with since I was a little girl.

I remember even her telling me, I remember it was a conversation when she was telling me she got a credit card in her name for the first time, which is 1972 or '73, which is shocking.

And she was saying how she never wanted to rely on her husband, a boyfriend, anyone to be financially secure.

And so that is something I was raised with, and I think that is where my drive comes from.

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Did you recognize realize early on that you were capable of really running a global business?

Was there doubt?

Was there any imposter syndrome?

I mean, I think yes, always.

There's all kinds of doubt.

In a startup, as you know, something happens every day.

And so you just— I'm very— it's almost grace under pressure I think a lot about.

And the more frenetic things get, I get more focused.

And that's something I get from my father.

My mom is a bit different.

I wanna dig into the risk thing a little bit more because that's something that I think so many women struggle with, like actually taking big risks.

Because if you don't, I mean, you would never have a brand like you have today.

No, you're right.

And I inherently am a risk taker and even a personal, I used to go bungee jumping.

I used to do all these crazy sporty things that were probably not safe.

So, but I have an older brother who helped me build the brand and he was always dialing me back.

So I'm the one who is always pushing and then he would be pulling.

And so we had this tension and I think that was very important.

And he's still with me today.

Is he still involved today?

Yes, I could never have done this company without him, Robert.

And he really helped me.

He came after the company was 2 years old.

He sold his company and I convinced him to come on board.

And he's really helped me really build it.

When you look back, what do you think have been some of your personal biggest challenges?

What are your biggest wins?

Well, I think the foundation has to be a win, but I think the company, I look at it as a second family.

Our employees are— I'm great at picking great talent and great people and surrounding myself with incredible people.

So that's a win for me.

You've always been good at that.

I said, I think I am good at that.

And I think I've learned when I'm not good at it to react and quicker.

I haven't always done it quicker, I think, you know, I definitely try things and I've learned how to hire better and take my time more and not hire quickly.

I think I never try to hire when I'm desperate for a role.

That's a piece of advice I give to entrepreneurs, like take your time and get to know someone and get a lot of references.

That's great advice.

You really need a lot of references.

It's amazing how many people don't reference.

Well, that or believe in a culture, you know, our culture is really unique for our company and that's not a culture that everyone fits in.

Into.

And what is that culture?

Well, it's one that is, I want a safe environment for people.

I want people to be treated beautifully.

I expect great work, but I want a great place to work.

I mean, it's a vastly different company.

You have 5,000 employees, I think.

Yeah.

I mean, that's nuts to even think about.

So what are you like as a leader, and how much have you learned and have to change and shift and adapt?

I mean, I've learned everything, but I will say that one thing I don't do is I don't micromanage people, and I think I let them shine.

And that's something I love to do.

And it makes people feel great, but it's because it's real.

And then you get their best work.

So I think I'm patient, not always.

I'm definitely a perfectionist.

And I was talking with Honor and Francis earlier today, and I was like, I know I'm precise and definitely like, they, you know, waved their head, yes.

It's not always easy, but it's always coming from a good place and out of respect.

I just feel like, you know, leadership is something that no one teaches it to you.

You have to find your way and your style of leadership.

How are you as a leader?

I think a little bit similar to what you're saying.

I have extremely high expectations, but both on myself and on everyone else.

Right, but you'll do everything you're asking someone else to do.

I'll do absolutely everything.

And I think that there's a respect level because I've come up through the ranks.

It's like I've done all the jobs.

I understand exactly what I'm asking somebody for.

So there's not that— But I don't know about you, but I can work work around the clock, and you have to be careful of that.

That's literally— you took the words out of my mouth.

I think that what I've had to be really careful of is expecting the same energy level that I have.

And of course, as a founder, as the entrepreneur, as the name on the door as you are, there is an expectation that you have that not everybody else has to share.

But I think that that was harder for me to understand maybe in the early days.

Yeah, it is hard.

And you are working, it doesn't feel like work for you, but that's not always the case for people.

They have a family, they have commitments, and— That's something you have to remember.

Yeah, and you have to balance that a little bit.

You've said that women have to make decisions that men simply don't.

What do you mean by that?

Well, I mean, women have expectations, whether they put it on themselves or societal.

And I think whether it's being the caretaker, taking care of the children or their parents, and we certainly see that with COVID and our entrepreneurs.

Women are the first to give up a career.

And you know, that's something, when I talk about ambition, ambition with women.

I remember phrasing it saying, whatever ambition means to you, whether it's being a stay-at-home mom or a CEO, it's really about living on your own terms.

And that's something that's really important.

And that's how I look at being ambitious.

But women just are held to different standards.

And that's something that is not changing.

Yeah.

It has to change.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I mean, this— I love that you say whatever ambition means to you.

The reason I I called my book "Start With Yourself" was for exactly that reason, because you have to start with your ambition, your vision, how you wanna live, what type of woman you

wanna be.

And that's very different for different people.

But I do think that we're still in a place and a space for so many women where there are a series of thoughts or ideas that exist in the culture that do hold women back, that do make

women have to keep themselves small.

And I wonder— And even holding yourself back, right?

And that's part of it.

And I really want to, I wanna talk more openly about that because I do think that, you know, sometimes maybe the reluctance to talk about money or the reluctance to come across as too

ambitious or the reluctance to, you know, maybe exhibit some type of behavior that's not deemed so eloquent and elegant can be holding women back somewhat.

Do you recognize that at all?

[Speaker:KATIE] I do.

And I remember growing up, I was taught very concretely not to talk about money.

And then I saw a shift and I would see, and I would say this to my mom, She is the most impressive entrepreneur.

I remember when we— and they used to say money's round, it comes and goes, and don't ever get too secure because you have to be careful with it and you take care of it.

So there was a time when she felt like she needed to work, and so she started— she was doing flowers and parties, and she started this crazy business.

And so I think that was inspiring to see.

What advice would you give to a woman who's been labeled as too ambitious?

Well, I would say tune it out.

That negativity is noise.

And I'm not sure what that means.

You know, I think that it's something that should be celebrated and it shouldn't be around gender.

Yeah.

And ambition should be a personal thing and people should think about what ambition means to them.

Yeah.

But it's not something to have a negative connotation around.

Around women, and that's something that has to be addressed.

And I think it's a conversation that just needs to continue.

So I love that you're doing it.

I love that women— When I started 20 years ago, there were no— there weren't a lot of role models for women.

No, there really weren't, which is one of the main reasons I love to do this show, because I think the more we see examples like you in the culture, the more we can understand it, and

we can see ourselves in it, and we can envisage it.

But not if we don't have the conversation.

Conversation.

I'm interested how motherhood, like, shaped your approach to business and to leadership.

I understand that there were, like, probably trade-offs that you had to make, but what did that really look like in practice?

I mean, one thing I would never trade off was being a good mom.

And that was something I never thought I could start a business if that were to have to happen.

But what does that look like to you, Tori?

Because I feel like even that in of itself, like, what it means to be a good mom, it's different for everybody.

What was it for you?

What did you need to do?

That I— well, first of all, I was, you know, my husband was there, but not, you know, when we got divorced, I was raising my kids a lot on my own.

So it was being at the doctor, going to a lacrosse game.

It was also starting a company that allowed women to be able to do that and not penalize them for that.

And so I thought, how do you build a culture around flexibility?

How have you been able to do that?

I have done it.

And what I say is that as long as it gets done, I'm not really clocking how it gets done.

It's done.

Same.

I think the same.

And I think you create those conditions so much yourself.

Like, I leave the office every day at 5:00.

That's because I like to go home and I like to do bath and bedtime and story.

But it creates the conditions for everybody else to leave at 5:00.

Yeah, and I used to do that, maybe not at 5:00, but I would be a stickler for being at home.

I would say if anything suffered, it was my social life.

But I— listen— That's always what gives.

That was fine with me.

But I will say, like, being a mom is the joy of my life.

And I often say I'm a survivor of raising 3 boys because it's It's hard, it's not always easy.

And they look at me now, they're in their 20s, and they apologize for what they put me through.

I mean, 3 boys in New York City, you can imagine.

Oh no, I can't.

And they're 3 little like torturers.

They used to bully me.

And so, but I'm tough.

Because you're so dinky and they're all— And they're giant, but I'm very tough.

And so I was a tough mom.

You were?

Yes, very tough.

And when you say like a tough mom, like you had to have rules and a schedule, like what do you mean?

I had rules.

I, you know, was on them.

I was like an investigator.

Yeah.

So— Just to keep everybody in check.

Keep everybody in check.

Keep everybody in check.

Do you feel like there were sacrifices that you made because of the children, like in the business?

You know, I think I managed, and I'm not sure, like, if I feel that it was a sacrifice.

I think I managed around.

And, you know, I guess the only thing that was sacrificed is my sleep.

I never, I still don't sleep, but I think, you know, for me, I would, you know, get the kids handled and put to bed and then start work.

And so that was kind of, but it was enjoyable.

I'm not complaining, but it's just when you have a company, you, it's, but at the same time, I will say I can turn it off very easily too.

So I have, yeah, so I have a lot of outside passions that I love.

I want to talk about all your passions because I love the fact that you're, you're so well-rounded.

But before we move on, just for me to understand, do you— when you speak to women that are, you know, perhaps debating starting something or leaving a job, having a family, when to

do it, like, what is the advice that you give?

I, I tell them that they have to do what's right for them.

And starting a family is something that a lot of women feel the need to do.

And so for me, like, I, I don't want women to have to make that choice of leaving a job because of that.

So that's something that I question whether they're at the right working environment if they feel that they have to do that.

That's a big conversation we have is, are you working in the right place?

Is that something— are you gonna be— feel like you're gonna be left behind?

A lot of attorneys, a lot of bankers, they feel like if they have a child, child, it's over for them from scaling.

Yeah, you know, I, I see that so much.

Do you think that, um, the idea of what it means to be a mother or a parent has changed in like the last 20 years?

Like, when you see, uh, social media and you think about what it means to be a mother right now, do you see big differences?

I think people are deciding whether they want to have children in a different way.

And I, I see a lot of people choosing not to as well.

They don't feel like they can do that.

That's what I think.

I, I, I really think that, you know, parenting hasn't changed that much, that the expectations on parenting has changed enormously.

I think when we're watching people on social media kind of do insane things around their children— I don't know, like making a really like elaborate packed lunch, for example.

You know, the pressure.

And that's just like a small thing.

The perfection of it all.

That level of like, okay, like I'm just gonna overparent the situation.

I'm gonna create these insane schedules and these insane lunches.

In a way, I'm glad I have my kids.

I mean, yeah, because I think that women do absorb that.

They do look in their fingers and think that that's— And they feel they're inadequate.

Absolutely.

And it's not real.

And it puts the pressure on.

It's not real.

It's not real.

I think there are many ways to come into parenting And my point of view is that I don't think children need nearly as much as we might think they do.

Well, we know that we, you know, the whole concept of a helicopter mom is a real thing.

And so I think kids, I used to entertain myself outside in the country.

Oh yeah.

We were left to our own devices.

Yeah, I mean.

If there was an apple in the house, my mom was like, they'll be fine.

But I remember during COVID my boys were enjoying Miami a little too much.

So I sent them to work with Navy SEALs in North Carolina.

Lineup.

No, you didn't.

You really are a tough mom.

It is the best decision.

If they wanted a bath, they had to build it.

And so it was like— So we were all taking it easy.

No, because we were going out to parties in Miami during COVID You're like, no, no.

I said, this is over.

You're like, that is not what we're doing.

Right.

Was that a hard time for you in the business?

Oh my God.

I mean— It was brutal.

It was brutal, right?

It was so brutal.

If you think about 5,000 employees, you think about 400— well, at that point, 375 stores.

Doors shut.

We had no visibility on when they would open, if they would open, and we had to pay healthcare.

And so I was trying to figure out how do we do the payroll so people could get healthcare.

And it was very real because that March, someone very close to me that had worked with me for 15 years, I was in a meeting with her on Friday and on Monday she was dead.

And it was from COVID And I just knew she hadn't come to a meeting and I was really worried about her.

And that— it was 4 days after I was with her.

And she— anyway.

So we knew it was incredibly serious, and it was incredibly tough.

How does Tori cope in a crisis?

Well, I get better in a crisi— I don't want to say that, 'cause I don't want to— I don't want you to be tested.

I want to keep them coming.

But I do get pretty— I get better and more focused in a crisis.

I think I was also trying to help our industry and working with the government.

Government and, you know, being in touch with Kevin McCarthy and Steve Mnuchin and trying to get payroll for like, and getting our industry to be considered as big as the food industry

or the airline industry because we're talking about over 14 million jobs.

Most people during COVID kind of went into a hole and was like, okay, let me just like see when this can go away.

But you are out there fighting for your industry, having bigger conversations, trying to expand into new spaces.

And the same with the foundation.

It's so much bigger than the business and the brand in so many ways in terms of like really changing people's lives.

Where does that come from?

I mean, I think if being able to have a company that can be responsible for positive change is something that is very inspiring to me.

And it's something that I've— that's why I started our company is not only to be financially independent because that was part of it, but it was also how can we impact as many people

as we possibly can.

And I would say that came from me since I was a very little girl.

I've always wanted to help people.

I was, I grew up in a kind of crazy environment of my parents taking so many different kinds of people in, never knowing who's gonna be at the dinner table, like having a kennel of

German Shepherds.

We had 50 Shepherds.

My parents would have all these kind of crazy people come.

And so I just saw a lot a lot of interesting, different kind of people.

And I also saw a lot of people who struggled.

And so for me, a second, almost my little brother who we adopted, he came with his mother, she had schizophrenia.

So I saw a lot of the hardship of mental illness and what that meant.

And so I've always wanted to give back.

It's something that, and I thought if the company could do that, that's such a way win.

It's such a win for the bottom line also.

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I'm really interested in this subject because I think it's way more prevalent amongst female founders and entrepreneurs.

Than men, that they want to include some type of community impact sentiment within their brand.

And I always think about that as being an incredible thing to do when you can do it, when the business has the, the roots, the profit, the infrastructure to be able to handle it.

How did you introduce that to your brand, and what do you think about that more generally?

Yeah, I mean, well, it was my business plan from day one.

So for me, that was something that was in my head, I think it was a long conversation of getting people to understand it and believe in it.

And also, I was really worried when I first launched the foundation, started the foundation in 2009, I never wanted it to be perceived as marketing in any way.

So I didn't really talk about it, and I wanted the work to start speaking for itself.

We started with mentor events where I would I would have 10 incredible people in business and I'd invite 100 women entrepreneurs and it was like speed dating for the night.

And it was really valuable, just some of the gems or lessons they learned.

And so that was the beginning.

But you know, there was a lot of negativity.

That's one thing we haven't touched on.

There was so much, there were so many articles written that were just incredibly negative around— Did that get to you?

Yeah, yeah, of course it did.

I think one thing my mom always said is don't read it.

And so I really don't read a lot of it.

Because it was very hurtful.

It was a vanity project.

It was the foundation, how could— why— also, why do you need to work?

Like, there's— goes back to perception and reality.

We didn't have a lot of money.

Everyone thought we did, but that's not the reality of what it was.

So when we made an investment into our company, it was a big deal for us.

So there were so many different things I was dealing with.

Did you ever get angry about that?

How do you react when you read things about yourself and when the perception's so strong strong, what's the reaction?

I, I got used to it.

I, I don't know that I got angry.

I would say I would get hurt for a minute and then I'd move on.

I'm a good recoverer, and I don't— I've, I've— I say to my kids, it's very freeing to let things go.

I'm very good at letting things go, and I don't hold things.

You were— you always like that?

Always like that.

And I just don't— I, I can't have the negativity around me, and I It's not a place I feel comfortable.

I mean, there was a moment when your brand faced a fair bit of criticism, changing consumer sentiment.

I wonder how you navigated that period.

I didn't, you know, it's funny, like everyone says, you know, you're back and you have this, as they've used so many different words to describe our reinvention and our evolution.

I said to my boys, I'm like, I didn't know I went anywhere.

That's how, she's like, what?

Listen, And I, I had this idea, like, I realized that the creative process was something I was so passionate about in the beginning and so involved in.

As I started building the business, the CEO role is something that really overtook me.

And so I was the CEO for 14 years.

Building a company and running, managing a company, what I realized is that I was missing what I was really passionate about, and that was the design and creation.

Creativity.

Yeah.

So— That's a big decision though, and one that I find specifically for female founders can really often elude them.

They either don't leave at the right time and take a new— assume a new position, or they don't think that they're right to be the CEO.

Will you just talk to me a little bit more about what that time looked like?

Because I'm assuming when it's your name on the door, you just assume the identity as the CEO.

It was that.

But 14 years in, you could afford it to bring somebody else in.