Bethenny Frankel: The Business Model Nobody Else Will Share | Aspire with Emma Grede

You are gonna love this conversation with Bethany Frankel, and be sure to to like and subscribe.

I'm not exclusive.

I'm not an exclusive girl.

I sleep with everybody.

I'm— I sleep with everybody.

Bethenny Frankel has built one of the most unconventional business models in modern media.

No playbook, no exclusivity, and no interest in doing it anyone else's way.

There's no strategy.

I just execute ideas.

There's always a level of exclusivity.

How on earth have you got away with that?

Because it really is my secret sauce.

For Bethenny, money has never been the goal.

Because she values her freedom above everything else.

Feeling shackled, feeling trapped, feeling controlled.

I never say how grateful I am after I make millions of dollars on a deal.

You don't have an endgame?

No, because I'm not motivated by, like, money.

Turns out freedom can be worth tens of millions of dollars.

There's nothing a billionaire can do that I can't do.

The money will come, the business will come, the ideas will come.

If you're a true entrepreneur, you'll find your way.

I always leave at the peak of the party.

Are you someone else when the camera goes off?

Bethany Frankel, welcome to Aspire.

Thank you for having me.

I'm very excited to be here.

As am I.

I am so happy you're here because if there's one person we can rely on right now to tell us the truth in the world, it is you, my dear.

Sadly, yes.

But today, hopefully it works out.

It's gonna make me happy.

And I have to say, I feel like I have known of you for like the longest time, but it feels like right now at the age of what, 55, you are more relevant than ever before.

And I give you so much credit for that because I think when you look at everything that you've done, starting businesses to this kind of reinvention that you've done of yourself, you

clearly are like a marketing and business genius.

I wonder if you feel like you get enough props for how brilliant you are.

I don't know.

I'm so sort of in it and I'm not out a lot and I'm not at events enough to know like what I'm perceived as.

I'm perceived by women, like the moms and their teenage daughters, very well.

I mean, I'm the woman of that people, but I don't know overall.

I wasn't expecting to be relevant now.

I was leaving and I was living in Connecticut and I was very lonely and my daughter had a couple more years in school there and I was feeling hopeless and just like, in this big house,

and I just was playing around with my makeup.

And I never knew how to do makeup, so I thought I would like to learn the skill of doing basic makeup if I were in Ohio to do an appearance, so I didn't have people come, come to my

room.

So I just was playing around with the videos, and I didn't even really know how to do them.

I didn't know how to post on TikTok.

I certainly didn't know how to edit.

I just was like, okay, film it and post it.

I learned that.

But the— there's this much room over my head, and there was a light right above me.

I didn't realize you're not supposed to have overhead lighting.

I never knew you were supposed to clean a camera.

Oh, I had no idea you're supposed to clean your lens.

People like, what's wrong with her lens?

Like, there was always food on my face because I was just posting.

I never looked at the videos.

It started to go viral, but I didn't even know what that was.

So I am a person, if there are more than— if there's more than one fish, I'm gonna start thinking.

So once, you know what I mean, if I see a bunch of fish, like, I'm gonna be like, wait, I'm never gonna not have the net again.

So how much was deliberate strategy versus you being in survival mode and trying to think about like your relevancy curve versus you actually being like very strategic.

I never thought of the Skinny Girl Margarita.

I just literally made a drink and then was like, wait, I just execute ideas.

There's no strategy.

I just execute ideas, and I'm addicted to the idea.

The, the CMO of Beam Global, when they were buying me, said, you're an idea hamster.

I have to control myself because then it's just too much noise.

So all of this is— I just, if I'm doing something, I do it well.

So no matter what it is, it could be making a snack, it doesn't matter.

So once this started I was enjoying it.

And then once I saw people be interested in it, then I was like, wait, am I like an influencer now?

And it just took this whole life unto itself.

But there was no playbook because I, I've done it in a way that no one else has done it because I'm very secretive and gatekeeping.

That's the last thing I would say about you, that you're gatekeeping.

It's the agencies that all want my model, and I'm not sharing how I'm doing it because I watch how other talent is doing it, and I'm, I'm not giving that away.

I'll give away all the makeup tips you want, but Listen, every single person has a ready-to-drink cocktail now and a low-calorie cocktail, and people will come in, you know.

But listen, I mean, people are coming.

I've heard you say so much about how much hate you receive and how much people hate you.

Do you look at it as something that is ultimately like really good for business?

Because at the end of the day, there's an attention economy and you have our attention pretty constantly.

I believe that trust and attention are the two most valuable assets right now in media.

I think that if you can have both, it's unbelievable.

People don't have to like me, but they do trust me and I do have their I mean, there's like data to prove that.

I don't like try to be hated.

I don't want to be hated, but I am aware that the people that hated Howard Stern were tuning in for twice as long.

I'm aware that the haters are, live for me.

So, you know, they're a currency.

And so I'll just clap back.

I'll be like, well, you're right here, so thank you for being here and get your popcorn out 'cause you're gonna hate me even more in about a moment.

Here we go.

Um, do you feel pressure to actually have an opinion on everything?

Are there times when you're just like, this is like out of my realm and I don't need to have an opinion?

I don't feel pressure to have opinions on everything.

My team will sometimes send me something that, uh, they think is interesting and everyone's talking about, and then I'll watch the video or the thing and I'll be like, wait, I have

a take.

I don't always have a take, and I sometimes have to get to the point where I will have a take, but it's only if there's a different take.

I don't like just saying something that everyone else has been saying, and maybe it's wrong or people don't agree with it, but that's when I'll share if it's different.

How do you know the difference between what is like good attention and you actually like making trouble?

Like, is there any distinction for you?

Like when you're like, actually, this is bad, this has crossed the line, I don't need this right now?

Oh yeah, I mean, I've, you know, I've had the moments when you're holding the steering wheel You can't hold it too tight and you can't let go because you're on the verge of cancellation.

And you really, the way you act could really make the difference in being canceled or not.

I mean, of course cancellation has been canceled, but yet still, no, there's a moment, there are moments when you have to pay particular attention and where the same thing that worked

yesterday won't work today, but it might work tomorrow.

So you have to be smart and instinctive and have good gut.

And it's not for the faint of heart.

No, and I feel like that's what you have.

Like when I look at some of your decisions, like one of my favorite things that I love to say is you make a decision and move on.

And it feels like to me in so many of your business moves and dealings, you've been super decisive.

It's like, and you almost like do things at, I'm not saying the wrong time 'cause they're right for you, but you do things at a counterintuitive time.

It's like you leave at like the height of you being on the Housewives, you sell your company for $100 million when actually people are saying maybe you should hold.

You seem to have this kind of zeitgeisty feeling for when is the right time.

And so I wonder like how you calculate those moments and how you actually know that you're gonna be right.

What a great question and observation no one has had.

I

do have a sense, like I feel it.

It's almost like you're playing chess in your mind and you're just like seeing the way it's gonna go and, you know, pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered.

I also don't do anything that doesn't feel right.

I don't do anything that I can't be totally honest about.

Because it won't work.

And so I don't write checks I can't cash.

Like, so if I don't want to be somewhere, I don't want to be there, and I don't really care what kind of money's coming in.

I'm really curious to understand, when a deal comes your way or an opportunity comes away, what is your thought process for whether or not you're going to take something and whether

or not it's right for you?

So here's what goes on.

The whole social media and brand world, it's basically like a chicken for me.

And you are— there's a breast, and then there's the— you're making broth.

And I really don't waste one bit of the chicken.

I love this chicken analogy.

No one's ever said that to me.

So if somebody comes in and you have a tiny brand and you want my influence in some way, you will not leave the store without being able to buy something from this store.

You will not be a dissatisfied customer and you'll be excited to be part of it.

And someone else is spending millions of dollars and you could be spending thousands of dollars.

And this is the model that no one else understands.

And that, like, I'm gonna share some but not fully because it really is what is my secret sauce.

It's why I don't create my own brand.

Like the reason I don't— Oh, this is one of my questions.

Yeah.

I listen, I don't, I haven't created my own SKIMS or my own, and everyone's asked me to because I can't be honest and I can't say that there's one, this is, oh, just kidding, my skincare

line, the 7 steps, this is— And every single thing is perfect.

No.

You're like, no, I'm gonna have one hit.

I'm gonna have a bunch of misses.

And you wouldn't be out, that wouldn't be authentic.

And I'm not gonna put it on my back and I'm not gonna go on the Today Show and the rest of the things and pretend

and that.

It's just like, I would never compromise my authenticity for anything.

But I have another way of piecing it all together with all of the different brands.

I'm not exclusive to them, which would never happen.

By the way, this is, this is one thing we have to get into.

I need you to come back to this question.

Okay.

For years I worked in celebrity brand partnerships, for 15 years.

Never ever ever did I see a contract, and I'm talking we are doing the biggest A-listers on the planet down to brand new influencers with 25,000 followers.

There's always a level of exclusivity.

How on earth have you got away

How do you deal with that?

Because I'm very trusted and partners come to me for their marketing budgets.

Like billion-dollar, multi-billion-dollar companies come to me to figure out how they're gonna spend their marketing.

So you have no exclusivity?

Zero.

So you can talk about any other products?

Anything I want.

And they want that because they know that I'm smart and I'm not going to jeopardize what we're discussing together and the products that I've truthfully loved and endorsed of theirs

because I truly love them, which is how we got here.

I mean, there's, but there's, it's Uber, it's Verizon, it's L'Oréal, it's Emco, it's food, it's travel,

restaurants.

I mean, it's everything because I speak to many things and I'm just brutally honest.

And I'll say something sucks and I'll say something from a company that I'm working with that's paying me millions of dollars, that something sucks cuz it sucks and you have to change

it.

And I'll tell them what they have to change and I'll tell them how to spend their marketing budget and I'll tell them, I will not read the sheet of what you're telling me to say cuz

you won't do well, you won't move product.

I can only say what I feel about it in the way that I need to say it.

So you are coming into these partnerships as a real partner.

You've got a point of view, you have an idea, you're not being given a script and going off.

You are actually working with the company.

Based off of your, like, the products that you like and being real about it.

Yes, if there's an ingredient that I need to mention because it should be mentioned, yes, of course you're going to do it.

Yes, but exactly, because you shouldn't be coming to me to read a boring script.

That's not what I'm here for.

So how is this working out for you?

Because it looks like it's going real well, and I just wonder, like, is the money, like, just crashing on in right now?

It's tens of millions of dollars.

Tens of millions of dollars in the brand and influence in the field for you right now?

Yeah, not including, not including my, my other businesses, my real estate, my lifestyle.

We're talking $10 million, $20 million.

No, we're talking like $20+ million.

So let me just go back a second.

So it's very clear that you're not going to do something unless you really believe in it.

But what other lenses and what other questions do you ask yourself when you're making a decision about whether or not to go into a partnership?

Like, tell me the thought process.

Okay, so I'll give you a model that I'm creating now.

Why I'm not starting my own line, but a new model that is good for me.

Yeah, a brand, a hair care brand came to me, okay, by a very, very wealthy woman, like you wealthy woman, okay, like very wealthy.

And it is very successful, but it hasn't fully popped off.

So it is pregnant, but it might not go to term, okay?

Just add me because the product is excellent.

There's another company that, um, oh, I actually just signed today.

That is, um, the guy under Howard Schultz created this coffee concept I'm obsessed with.

They didn't give me enough in the beginning.

They first— I popped it off just like I popped off other brands, they come back, they want a taste.

I'm like, no, no, no, I already made your— I already— you're where you are because of me, and I never made any money the first time.

I'll give you a taste.

I'm the drug dealer.

Do you do that deliberately?

Do you go, wait a minute, here's a brand over here, there's the potential partnership?

All shapes and sizes.

What in this— I don't know what anything is.

I'm blind.

Cars show up at my house, coffee makers, thousands of dollars, diamonds.

A coffee maker came, I tried.

I'm like, this is the richest bitches of coffee makers.

It's this technology, and it tasted like it was from Australia.

I give every product a chance.

If it's in my house and I know that cost that brand money, I'm gonna try it at some point.

Could be 3 months from now.

So I was like, I'm obsessed.

They wanted to just pay me a fee, a fine, to use the content.

That's nothing.

They want more.

I'm like, no, you got your taste.

I blew up your brand.

You said it was more influential than any other big-time celebrity.

Now I need a piece.

So they gave me— you measuring this yourself?

My team.

I have a team.

Yes.

My— well, I have a team there.

Yes.

So you have an awareness of how much, like, value you're delivering to the brand so that you're actually saying to them, look, I can see that this happened?

Not as granular at that point for everyone.

I know that 20 people have said to me, oh my God, I'm obsessed with that product because you and I know if I've heard about that, there are a lot more mice under the floorboards.

So then this company gives me a certain amount in the beginning and that's enough to talk about.

It's not enough to be my baby.

Equity or a cash deal?

Equity and cash.

What gives you the idea that you're like, this is a company that's worth taking equity versus this is just like a cash upfront deal?

How oversubscribed they are, where the value still is, can I make a difference?

So this coffee company, for example, called Cumulus Coffee, They didn't give me enough for me to be fully like giving birth to it.

So, and I've seen them now 2 years later, this is where I'm getting to the model about the haircare.

2 years later I'm watching, they didn't pop off yet.

And I'm like, 'cause you did this, that, and the other thing wrong.

Put me in, coach.

Hurt yourself and give me a big piece 'cause I'll take it into the end zone.

This is the Just Add Bethenny.

They're already a major company.

The guy was under Howard Schultz.

They've spent millions of dollars.

The technology is there.

Put me in.

I don't need it to be the Bethenny brand, nor do I need the haircare company to be the Bethenny brand.

You're already, 80% there.

So you'd rather come in and shortcut someone's done all this investment, 30% of a company, and you're, you're taking 30% of a company for some— in some cases, what did you take 30%

off?

I'm not— I don't think I can say that.

All right, you're taking 30% of a company, but you're taking that— we're not talking like 2%, 3%.

You're taking a meaningful chunk of an already fully funded entity that's out there.

And so now, because before the little 2%, you're not going to get what you wanted.

I mean, because I'm not going to pretend— am I going to every day talk about it?

You're getting a bigger value than I Talk to me about a deal that you would walk away from.

So I've read that you said you're not a contract person, you are a concept person, right?

Yes.

If I don't like the founder, if I don't, if I don't see the moves that the founder is making that are smart, and I have one that gave me a big percentage of their company, but they're,

they're not, they're not going into the end zone.

And I really just don't wanna bet.

There's, there are too many great founders to, to sit around with someone who is in their own head and who they wanna be famous more than make their brand famous.

Like people have to just understand what's most important.

That's a big, big problem with founders right now.

They want more of their own press than to worry about the brand.

And where I'm a marketer, I'm a brand builder, I'm a messenger, a connector.

Like, so I am only interested in things that I am obsessed with, that I really think I can affect the change, because that's the passion.

I don't want you to just give me free money.

I don't care about money that much.

I like money, I really don't.

So what's the motivation?

The idea, the execution of the idea, like the creativity.

Like, it's very creative.

I'm a very creative person, but I'm a very creative business person, and I love like the craftiness of the contract.

Well, okay, then work it out that way.

Then fine, give me nothing.

Give me all the upside.

Give me the back points on the movie.

How involved are you in these negotiations?

Very.

So what's the team look like?

The team looks like I have a COO who worked with Drew Barrymore before and Reese Witherspoon before.

I have a woman that I taught how to pretty much do this.

I just said, just start taking all the incoming calls.

And now we've crafted this.

That's why it's different.

And she didn't come from some other place doing this.

We created this model on our own.

So this is my right hand.

She's like my, you know, my Huma Abedin, my Sheryl Sandberg.

Yes, yes.

She's my right hand.

And she and I talk about everything in like the craftiest way possible.

Like, you know, not feeding you crumbs.

And everyone's in-house?

Everyone's in-house.

And what's the social media team look like?

Social media team is for, one is just interfacing with brands all day long.

Like what they need, what they don't need, keeping the brands happy.

Then I'm really the in the wild.

I really do the social media myself, which is crazy.

And I—

I— it's— it— you can tell it's homemade, and I want it that way.

It's not overproduced.

Um, and then, but you have to have people feeding the bakery, so I have, uh, 3 other people.

Do you have like an agent, a manager, a publicist, like that whole situation?

Agencies that I work with.

I would not say that I have an agent.

I'm not exclusive.

I'm not an exclusive girl.

I sleep with everybody, Emma.

You sleep with everybody?

With everybody.

Don't you just— she gets about and she makes some money.

And I tell them all right before we sleep together that I sleep with everybody.

And what about— I heard that you recently fired

like a social media agency?

Like, what made you make that decision when you're really, like, so popping off in social right now?

Someone told me when I was already making probably a couple of million dollars a year, someone said— this was several years ago— uh, you have to go with this company because then this

is the company that everybody goes with.

Everybody.

And because they're gonna bring you millions and millions of dollars of deals.

And I walked in and I said, well, great.

Well, I have to carve out these 25 companies that I'm already working with, whether it's Maybelline and CoverGirl and Neutrogena.

And I get to carve out a lot of companies.

And, um, every agent only focuses on the 25 5 things you've carved out.

They only focus on the toy you told them not to play with.

So I'd work with Amazon every day, but they'll be like, "Oh, we could help you." I'm like, "We're good with Amazon." You don't need it.

To the tops of Amazon, okay?

Like, we're okay.

So I had this agency and I said, "Great, here are the keys to the kingdom.

Let's see what you could do." And they and all the other agencies were bringing in probably 2% of deals.

Agents will say, "Because there's confusion in the marketplace," and it's not true.

There's no confusion in the marketplace.

They just don't bring in the deals.

We bring in the deals.

We talk directly to the CMOs of billion-dollar companies, and we do it— we're quick, we can move in 2 seconds.

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So take a step back for me and talk to me about how you see and categorize yourself as a business right now, because you're doing so many different things.

I wonder, and I hear you saying there is no strategy, but there is a strategy to like Bethany overall.

I am a very decisive person to what, to what you said.

I am a chess player.

It's not a strategy like I want to be a billionaire.

I need to do I won't do this.

It's a strategy in the machinations of how it's working every day and how they interface with each other.

I won't do one thing if it doesn't work with something else.

I won't do anything that disturbs my peace.

I don't work that much.

I'm always thinking, but I only will shoot— I will only ever shoot content for any of the products on a day that I am already in hair and makeup and somewhere like this.

So if I were to leave the shoot, we would say, "Can I use one of your offices?" And my team would come in and we'd be doing all the products because I like my free time.

I like my daughter, my dogs, the man I'm seeing.

I am very happy.

How much are you working, like physically working?

Probably, I don't know, like 20% of a week, 10% of a week.

Not a lot.

I don't want— I like to work.

I like to just get things done.

But this is creative.

If I don't want to do it, I don't do it.

If I'm in a restaurant, I decide to talk about it, like it's going to go viral and that's going to be great for them and And that— I only know that because Eugene from Corner Store

told me that you are what happened to our restaurant.

It was you.

Well, that was you.

Yeah, he said you posted about it and then Taylor Swift came in and then it changed our lives.

He just said that this week.

So I was just in CVS today because my makeup was screwed up.

That'll turn into some kind of a deal.

Like, it just will because I was telling the people that this product, this e.l.f.

powder, happens to be better than what I just got done by the makeup artist.

It just does.

So that'll probably turn into a deal because it's true.

And so back to the question though, how are you looking at yourself and your business?

Like, what are you trying to build?

Well, the thing is that a lot of this is on my back, so that's not a viable business model.

If you're a massage therapist, you have to have a massage therapy business because it's all on your back.

There's only so many things you can do.

So I have The List, which is the place where people go to find all the products, and it's very editorial, and it's very like OWN magazine or a Goop or— it's a world.

And what is that?

That is like an affiliate network?

It's like an affiliate network, but also

of our partners and whatever I do on my podcast, like everybody's sort of in the business of me.

So everybody plays in all these spaces.

So all of the brands end up being in the list and it's good.

Everybody wins.

The person wins because it's Mother's Day and I'm helping you with what the best gift is.

And then you know what's crap and what's not crap.

The brand wins because they're moving product or I've said it's bad and they need to work on this and I'm giving them free constructive criticism.

I win because I make a lot of money.

So what I see myself is, is a person that really is directly connecting to humans.

It's all about connection.

What's the end game?

The end game is when I get tired, I'll stop doing it.

The Bethany Seal is now something that we're putting on different things, and retailers want to pay into it.

Stores want to have Bethany-approved products in.

But that's not an end game, it's just a good idea.

And yes, I'll make a lot of money off it.

I don't have an end game.

I don't have an end game.

No, because I'm not motivated by like money.

Like, I, I'm not.

It's just, I'm— if I'm gonna I'm gonna turn your business, of course I'm gonna make money, and I'm not stupid.

I'm not gonna, but it's not, I really don't, I want, my endgame is to be on the beach, hanging out, and doing what I want, and making money on what I want, and I just keep charging

people more because I keep saying no.

So the reason I make so much money is I just say no all the time.

I won't do things for like any normal amount of money because I don't, I wanna enjoy my life or make a lot of money doing it.

I'm literally like dead.

I was so expecting a totally different answer.

Do you believe me though?

I completely believe you.

I mean, there's nothing not to believe in you.

I know.

But it's really interesting because I think that so many people have like such a giant vision for themselves.

And when you have options, right?

Like, 'cause you have a lot of options, you could really be thinking about this as like, what is Bethany the media company?

How do you make a million more Bethanys?

I could have 100 people under me and manage their businesses like this.

I could have an agency.

Totally, totally.

I could do this too.

I value my life.

I value my daughter.

Like, I wanna live.

I wanna be healthy.

Where does that come from?

I just know what it means to be like, what it means to feel unhealthy.

And I wanna feel— this is fun for me.

Like, it's fun.

It's fun that I spilled tomato soup all over myself, go into Talbots and found clothes.

I was like, wait, they have cute jeans.

And then Talbots— it's all real.

Like, I just wanna live.

And if I don't wanna do it, I don't do it.

So if I don't wanna go to the restaurant, if I don't wanna go to Paris and walk in Fashion Week and talk about products for different brands,

friends, I won't go.

I'm only doing exactly what I want to do.

And so if I don't like it, you'd probably have to pay me a ton, and I probably would still say no.

But like, if it was a ton ton, maybe I wouldn't, because it would be too much to turn down.

But I like to have fun.

I like to laugh.

I like to dance.

I like to have sex.

I like to be with my dogs.

I like to date.

I like to cook.

And I just like to be at the beach.

So whatever gets in the way of that, I will not do.

And what makes you emotional?

How much, you know?

The risk of that.

Feeling shackled, feeling trapped, feeling controlled, feeling like my light is dimmed, feeling put in a box, feeling like I'm given words that I have to do, feeling like I partner

with someone, they're gonna make me do something I don't wanna do.

Like, I really just don't like doing what I don't wanna do, 'cause it's just not authentic.

How much of that is linked to things that have happened in your past?

Like, I just wonder where that dread and that feeling comes from, because seemingly you have so much options at the moment.

Like, that's not gonna happen.

Is that just so much about where you've been your private and personal life in the past?

I mean, I don't know.

I just think like, why does everybody have to be a billionaire?

Like I could be a billionaire.

Like what is that?

It's just like a flex now.

It's all these like douchey guys and girls.

I have a dating concept and every girl who has, and they say, what do you bring to the table?

A lot of these girls don't have a lot to bring to the table.

They're like sort of cute.

And like they just come in with their hands out.

Yeah.

And the only thing they know is they want someone with a big program and a billionaire.

And I'm like, who the fuck do you think you are?

You are preaching to the converted.

I spoke about this so much in my book

because I feel like we've gone crazy, like that everything needs to be a unicorn, everything needs to be a billion-dollar opportunity.

Stupid word enough.

It is, and it also has no value.

Like, at the end of it, it's like, yeah, you might have like a giant thing, but do you want everything that goes along with that?

And I think that there is so much to be said for somebody that actually has a lot of options and chooses what is right for them.

Like, that is actually the definition of having a vision and a strategy for yourself.

You know exactly what is right for you, and you are choosing the things that are gonna make your life meaningful, not taking every opportunity that you have to build the biggest thing.

No, because time, we're not getting time back.

Facts.

There's nothing a billionaire can do that I can't do.

And I don't want, I don't care.

I like to, there's no price on being happy and laughing.

I am funny because I am like an idiot, and I love to be like stupid and laugh, and I like to make people laugh and bring them in with me, and I like to like, to like, you know, show

women that like you can turn it out when you need to turn it out, you can be successful, that you can have fun, and you could dance to stupid dances.

And like, it's not that deep.

When do you think you learned that?

I've been silly my whole life.

I've always really liked to laugh.

It's a number one— sleep and laughter, I would say, would be my top priorities, except for my daughter, obviously.

So yeah, everyone's always been trying to figure out like what the plan is and did I plan all this, and I'm always like, I've overshot I never planned any of this.

I just wanted to be able to pay my rent.

I just wanted to not be like suffocating from feeling like I was gonna be broke and no one who was gonna take care of me.

I had no family.

Yeah.

Well, you had a lot of foresight.

'Cause if I go back and again, I've been reading so much about you in the last, you know, week or so.

But just kind of going back to those original Housewife Bravo days, the idea that you had so much foresight to carve out of your deal any business opportunities so that that could be

100% yours.

I mean, that led to your first success, but you were the— the first person to do that.

And I think that that's so interesting that you were even thinking about and had the foresight to think about yourself as a brand before you were anything.

Well, I had nothing.

You know what it is?

I think this is all linked, and I will try to think about where that comes from.

Everything that we've said is about having freedom.

Locked into a deal, agent, someone telling you, shackled, you take a piece of my thing, the brand agency where there's no there there.

Like, I just want to be able to do it myself and talk directly to the person that I'm doing it with or for, or just talk to the people.

That's why people think I want to be back on television.

I don't at all.

Do you see me wanting to be sitting and talking to Suits and telling them, pitching them what would work to then shoot it for all this time and then edit to then— You have no interest?

Zero.

Unless it were just about in my house, like about this.

But like, no, I don't.

Because again, I don't want to be shackled.

I don't want cruise in my house.

I left twice.

I don't want that life.

How important was it for you that you were able to create that carve-out for yourself from your original Bravo contract?

Oh, it's a flex.

It's a flex.

It's smart.

It's good, like, case law for other people.

It shows to just believe in yourself.

It shows to never assume anyone's smarter than you and to just, like, understand.

I didn't know the difference between the word licensing and equity Um, when I did my Skinny Girl Diet, I didn't know.

I just— but I always asked.

You didn't?

I had no idea what either word meant.

And I asked the lawyer and he said, this is— licensing means you'll start taking money now.

Equity is like, it's yours.

And I said, well, this I feel like is my ace in the hole, so I'd like the equity choice.

But I don't understand a lot, and I always ask.

I'm a crowdsourcer.

And then I do decide.

I'm a very great decider.

Yes.

And when you exited that company, it was a $100 million exit, right?

I can't say exactly.

I mean, I never have said exactly what it is, but it also was like I had a big back end and I had a big multi-million million kicker.

And I also triple dipped because two other creative concepts in that deal were that I said that I would only, um, promote things that we had discussed.

And then they decided to do something else, and I said, well, you can do it.

And they said, well, we need you to promote it.

And I said, you have to pay me per case.

So they paid me per case.

And then there was another— I said to them, well, how do I know you're going to market it?

How do I know you're going to market the product so I can earn my back end?

And I said, you have to promise— you have to put in writing that you'll market 18% of the budget and they didn't spend it that one year and I ended up being 100,000 cases short, but

I still got the, I think it was $5, like $10 million kicker.

So there were a lot of different ways to make money.

I kept making money.

I made a 10-year endorsement deal too.

So they brought me— So on top of the equity, you actually ended up with an endorsement.

Yes.

So that's really smart.

That's about you really understanding the business that you were in and your value to that business and finding ways that you can kind of, you know, get more milk from the same cow,

as we say.

That's the chicken.

I mean, that's it.

That's the chicken.

That's the chicken.

You got a chicken, I've got a cow.

I love it.

Well, and also many people only look at the one number and you have to look many different ways.

What are the other things you can do if you sign the contract this way at a little bit less than you want to take?

What are the other ways to structure?

What about taking more upside?

What about, you know, there are many ways to work deals and you can't only think about the one way, which is what most people do.

So if you can't get the deal that you want, find your way in.

Yeah, you gotta be creative.

What have been the hardest lessons to learn from you, from your business journey overall, would you say?

Managing people is very difficult.

It's very difficult.

I don't love it, and I like a small team.

So to your point about a media company, I have a very small team.

I have a team of 6 people.

Most people like to really delegate and move papers around the desk and not do it themselves.

And if you have a tighter team, everybody really has to fire on all cylinders.

No shit.

No shit.

Yeah.

More people, more problems.

Yes.

What type of leader are you?

I am an intense, inspiring, direct leader.

Leader that really will take the time to explain how and why something should be done the way that it should be done, but then hit the wall when we're like, I can't, I can't chew up

the food and feed it to you.

No, at some point, expectations, very high expectations.

You think your leadership has changed over the years because you've been doing this for like a long time now?

I mean, there's been different, different iterations in your business, but you've been making money for a long time.

I never really realized how much you have to have an all-star team.

And it's the— obviously, they say you're only as strong as your weakest link.

Every person has to be the best.

You have to be firing on all cylinders, and you cannot have any sort of, like, "This is a dress rehearsal" type of people.

You gotta get 'em out.

You have to have excellent people.

It is not show friends, it's show business.

Business.

How do you deal with that though?

Again, because I think that that can come very naturally to some people, but you don't always realize that somebody is not the best.

You can smell it, and then you have to go search it out.

I had a woman— I've had several people that I've hired with big resumes came over from this person, and this was sort of a person that seemed like they were not really doing the work

themselves.

And then there was another person who was working in an executive function, and the two of them I had to be fearless and let them go, thinking it was going to really affect my life.

And I hired someone who's a senior in college, who has no experience, and someone who was a mechanic, but they worked around my house, and they are doing a better job.

No doubt.

Than the people for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Like, literally, my schedule, my calendar, my glam, my security, flight, travel, because they're asking the questions and they're working hard and they're loyal.

You could teach— I can't teach brain surgery, but you could teach a loyal, smart, honest person just about anything.

Almost anything.

Just about anything.

I agree with you.

I feel like that you have to hire for attitude over experience.

Full on.

All day long.

Hustler.

Because the right hustle mentality, someone who wants to come to work, someone who wants to do a good job, somebody who wants to work and work with you is gonna do just that.

An infinitely better job.

I want to talk to you a little bit about your attitude to money because you've spoken so much about not needing money, not like having to do this job for money.

But your relationship with money is interesting.

And we spoke a little bit about you growing up around the racetracks and gambling, which was similar to me.

But that means that you grow up around a lot of financial chaos.

And I read— Beyond, right?

It always is.

I read somewhere that you said that your mother had tremendous money noise.

And I wonder how that kind of impacted your relationship with money?

Well, her relationship with the men created my money noise.

So it was that I have the— have had the noise because she would be with— she would tell me that she gave up her life for me and that she was with all of these men for money for me.

So, and it was gambling and drugs, and you know, you'd be paying back like bookmakers and I'd have— we'd have the whole house was no furniture and a card table, and my room would have

furniture in it.

Like, very— we'd have 6 cars in the driveway, then we'd have nothing.

We'd go— we would— I was in 13 schools.

We moved from one house to another house.

Like, we had no financial stability.

It was highs and lows.

It was racetrack.

You want to race, you want a couple races, you're up for something.

Yeah, yeah.

So it was very gambler mentality, and it took me a while to crack open— crack open a minibar, to to spend the money for a private plane, but not every time.

I'm not wasteful.

I don't waste money, time, or food.

I don't waste.

So I like it, want it, need it, and don't— and like the freedom it provides for experiences, for medical, for things like that.

But, um, enough is enough, you know what I mean?

Enough is enough.

I'm home safe now.

I have 4 homes.

I have— I don't like big giant showy places or things like that.

So I'm happy.

Do you think your, your kind of obsession though around ownership and equity has stemmed from that instability?

Yes, there's a lot of instability that has informed where I am now and how I have that relationship to money.

And even with, with men, I've thought at this stage I needed to be with someone who had more than I do, or the same.

And I, I no longer think that.

I really, I think that's the worst thing.

And I've learned that through the dating community because everybody, all these women wanting to come in and money's their biggest priority.

And mine is happiness and love.

I mean, I love that you said that, actually.

I was reading so much about your divorce, which kind of pained and irked me in a way to imagine that a woman could be in a 2-year relationship with a 10-year divorce.

It was made for painful reading.

And I wonder how you think about, like, your own money in relationship to the relationships that you get into, because you have a daughter.

And I wonder if that experience has just made you to shut down and be, like, so overly protective around what you have and how you make it right now?

I was very flippant about my prenup then, but I didn't really trust my partner at that time the whole time.

And it wasn't just because I had money and he didn't.

It was just because I just didn't trust, and that served— that became true.

I won't be probably that trusting with money, but I just don't want money to be a character in any relationship.

The only— the one thing that should not be a problem in any relationship that I'm in money.

That would be— there's something wrong with you if you are as successful as I am and you're thinking about money.

And by the way, I know a lot of very successful, like very successful people that are in the dating community that hundreds of millions of dollars, and they still want a man who has

more money than them.

You'll give them a great guy who has money and is successful and good-looking, it's like a sickness.

And I'm like, what is wrong with you?

Like, there's something wrong.

Like, so you don't need to date a man that has equal money to you?

That's how I think a lot of women feel, like, I don't want a man who makes less money than me.

And that's What the— what does that mean?

Why?

Who— what does that mean?

I— can we— can we go out to dinner?

I have houses.

What do I need you to buy me?

Another house?

I have bags, watches.

What do we— what do we need?

Well, I feel like the fear is that that person would be using you, or, you know, it's like— it's, uh, if somebody has less than you, that perhaps they're not on equal footing, that

that creates a dynamic in the relationship.

Like, I understand why women would feel like— I understand that, but assuming that that other person seems motivated money.

If they don't seem motivated— that's a different thing.

Yeah, if they don't seem like they care about money, if they don't seem interested in it, then you can't penalize them for not having been as hungry as you, you are.

Um, yeah, I think someone has to be successful to be with me.

Someone has to be able to take me on vacation, buy me a present, and, and go out to dinner.

But I've had men buy me diamonds and Hermès bags and watches and cars and all this stuff, and it hasn't filled the void.

So I'm certainly not gonna make that mistake.

And actually, I think many women feed themselves with stuff to make up for what they're not getting emotionally because they better get something.

They're leaving the game show.

They better walk out with something.

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