Why You Feel Empty Even When You're Winning Feat. Pete Holmes

Neither one went with him.

When my dad died, he had worries and insecurities and problems.

None of those went with him either.

You're none of those things.

That's right.

You know, but what's interesting is what he did leave here.

My dad helped thousands of other people get sober.

Like maybe start to focus more on who and what

matters to you.

You have this thing you do, bro.

I've watched it probably 50 times.

Wow.

And it's this notion of what do we come from, right?

God or nothing.

We come from God or nothing.

I think God is awareness.

I think there's only one awareness.

And I think that's what Jesus was pointing us to.

And I think one of the points of life is to remember that we belong to each other and to help each other.

As my homie Ram Dass said, walk each other home.

Let's, let's bring it down.

Let's, let's reduce it down to the, the thing that we all have in common, that we're here, we are, we're aware, we're present.

And if we're being honest, we're, we're kind of confused.

It's so— this is an all-timer, bro.

You'll get all of that, and then you'll get a joke like, do you ever have to poop so bad you pee second?

They're like, you're gonna get them both, you guys.

You're gonna get them both.

Welcome back to the show, everybody.

So truth be told, I sought this man out to come on.

I want— I think he's one of the funniest human beings in the world, but I also just think there's something underlying his work that he's like a compelling, interesting figure to me.

And I find myself— I frankly use the show sort of sometimes as a magnet.

I wanted to meet him.

And I wanted to know him and I was telling him off camera, some of my really good friends that are in his industry in the stand-up comedy world name him as the guy they think is just

hilarious and funny and talented.

But there's some depth to him that you don't get in just your average everyday guest.

He's a unique man.

I can't wait to kind of dig into who he is and what he's all about.

You know, you probably know him.

You recognize his voice.

And if you're on YouTube, you see his face.

He is Peter Benedict.

Great middle name, by the way.

Yeah, it is.

Serious.

He's also a Boston boy like me originally, and I think he's one of the funniest humans in the world.

So welcome to the show, Pete Holmes.

Thank you very much.

What a nice— I'm already glad that we did this.

Yeah, let's just cut right now.

We can end it.

We could.

He has his own podcast.

It's called You Make It Weird, right?

It's just been— Made It Weird.

Yeah, but yeah, it's been around forever, you guys.

It's like, oh yeah.

After his TV show.

I wanted to ask you, why are so many stand-ups from Boston?

I mean, that's a great question.

I, I— it's not to be too much of a cliché, but I think there's something about—

I don't want to put it down, but there's something a little repressed about Boston.

Meaning, it's, you know, remember Gary Goldman had this great line where if you drank Sprite in Boston, you were— that was considered effeminate, you know what I mean?

There's So there's something kind of like, oh, I grew up in this pressure cooker of like toughness and, uh, and kind of, again, I don't want to put it down.

I really love Boston, but like knuckleheads, I'll say knuckleheads, toughness and, uh, intense liberalism and intense geniuses.

So like MIT, but also like the diehard Red Sox fan, fuck you, and all that sort of stuff.

And Harvard and roads made for horses in the snow.

And like my father and my mother's from Lithuania, but she's from South Boston and my father's from like Somerville.

So they were from like real, I say with respect, like real Boston.

Like they knew all these connected people and all this dangerous stuff.

And I grew up in Lexington.

Uh, so there's something about the first generation that gets to safely express themselves in a place that doesn't really celebrate expressing yourself.

You know what I mean?

I do know exactly.

I'm like the first, I'm like the first dog that escaped the porch, you know, and I ran real fast and I sometimes catch my dad.

Um, I think having warm, like, pride that like he provided a life for me that I was like safe to tell people about my insecurities or my fears or whatever it was.

And he never really got to have that.

Uh, and I think he thinks— I hope quietly— he's a, he's a Boston dad, so I can't know for sure, but I think he thinks it's pretty cool that I've, uh, gone the other way and, and that

I had a, a cozy enough of a, or safe enough of a life to be like, you know, he must look at my stand-up like, what are you doing?

You know, like, why are you admitting that?

You know, or whatever it might be.

No, man, I totally relate to that.

That sounds exactly like my dad, like 100%.

So I want to ask you, like, I do watch you on stage and I speak for a living, but what I want to make today is like lessons of success.

We're going to talk a little bit about God, you guys, and but lessons of winning.

I'm just curious, some of these, some of the people in standup I've had on, I've asked, were you funny originally and were you good originally?

And they're like, no, it took me forever.

I bombed.

In your case, were you good like right out of the gate on stage and in stand-up?

And it's okay if you were.

Some people try to make it like, oh, I was terrible.

Yeah, great.

Were you?

You know, the classic is that Chappelle was good the first time he went up.

What I— you know, it's interesting.

I really like— I hope you don't mind the term self-help.

I think motivation is very interesting and I read a lot of that stuff and grew up and changed my life.

So I hope I'm not— it doesn't sound pandering if I speak in these terms, but it's true.

I would gauge my success based on my environment.

So I wasn't measuring myself against Jerry Seinfeld or, you know, the greats, like the people that were huge.

I just wanted to be one of the better people at the open mic.

And I didn't do that consciously.

I just, I knew it would overwhelm me if I was like, am I great?

You know, I'm talking about when I really first started, I just was like, was I in the top 5 of this awful open mic?

So that, I will say, uh, pretty much from the beginning, even though I wasn't very good, I was pretty conscientious.

I would write, I would have like a theme.

I remember at an open mic at the Comedy Connection in Faneuil Hall, the host went up and I didn't do very well.

It was probably the second or third time I went up, but my parents were there and they remember this too.

He got up on stage, this real pro, you know, he'd been doing it 20 years.

And he goes like, that's how you do it.

He goes, beginning, middle, and end.

He was talking about something like— I, I was, I was a student of it.

I studied like, oh, a lot of these things end with— I didn't know it was called a callback, but you call something back, something you established at the beginning.

It's a good way to cue to the audience that you're done.

And you go, and I look at him and it's, it's the clown from before, or whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah.

So I did that.

I did it kind of like conscientiously.

And I, I feel like even in those early shows, I was like, at my level, at the amateur level, I was in the top 3 consistently.

And that, and that's what I tell people when I start.

I go, don't measure yourself against Bill Burr.

Go to an open mic.

You'll laugh.

You'll be like, look, it's just, it just is awful at the beginning.

Yeah.

Not throwing shade on, we're just all awful.

So go and just see if you can be one of the 3 best awful people.

And, and that's a good— I, I do feel like I was,

you know, in that top 3 at most open mics.

That's probably good advice for anything.

Yeah, right?

Like, whatever your stage is, don't compare your chapter 1 to chapter 9 of someone else same time.

You ought to show— paralyze you.

Do you think you should show some proclivity to being decent at something in the beginning?

Like, maybe that's a sign, like, hey, you— this might be your lane.

You know what I mean?

Well, the tricky thing with stand-up, not so much when I was starting, but when people tell me they want to be stand-ups now, I'm like, are you sure?

Because a lot of times I think you're saying I want to be rich and I want to be famous because stand-up is culturally relevant right now.

Believe it or not, when I started in 2000, 2001, it wasn't as relevant.

It was still kind of like a fringe activity, not entirely, but it wasn't— they didn't have as many stand-ups like hosting SNL.

It wasn't— we weren't selling out Madison Square Garden.

I just mean my people, we weren't selling out Madison Square Garden.

So like, you really got to get clarity on, is it what you want or are you just a guy who lives in Cooperstown, New York, and you think you want to be a baseball player?

You know what I mean?

Like, just because it's what's around.

But if you go

and you're good, that's a real— and how it feels to do good, that's really the big clue is I would do good and I would feel— I've never done cocaine, but it's got to be what it is.

I would, I would feel elated, like this vibrating, buzzing euphoria and excitement.

Like, and I would get up excited to keep doing it, you know.

That's not to say there wasn't a lot of fear.

There was a lot of fear.

There's a lot of dry heaving.

There was a lot of anxiety.

There were a lot of ruined birthdays and holidays because I had a show booked 2 weeks in the future and I just couldn't relax because I wasn't good.

Yeah, hard to know you're going to get your ass kicked in 2 weeks.

It's really good point though, because I was thinking like, uh, there are things I've been pretty good at.

There's a— well, there's a million things I'm not good at, but there's been some things I'm pretty good at that it didn't juice me when I was good at it.

Yeah, yeah, I know that.

But like, for me, like, on stage speaking, like, big arenas or big crowds or whatever, or just like this, like, human connection stuff sort of like really impacts me.

One of the things that held me back— I'm just curious because I watch you, I think One of the reasons you're kind of compelling to me is like, and just having met you even off camera

for a few minutes, I can tell, I think I'm right, like you're a nice guy.

And what I mean by that is like some of my friends that do what you do are like, I don't give a crap what anybody thinks.

There's a hard edge to them almost.

I'm wondering,

do you care a lot of what people think about you?

And did that hurt you in any way or help you like in progress on stage?

Like in the beginning, Were you evaluating too much?

How am I doing?

Do they like me?

And does that still affect you to this day?

Less.

But I actually think at the beginning, that's a good wound to have.

It is a wound wanting people to like you.

It's also a type of— it can be narcissistic to want everyone to like you.

It's just another way of controlling people.

But if that was a survival technique, as it was for me, that doesn't mean it's all bad or anything.

I just learned I can be safe if I make everybody happy and if I make everybody kind of think I'm the golden boy.

That is really good when you're starting.

I'll speak for myself.

That was really good for me because when I, when I tell people when they're doing stand-up, I just say, you know, when would you laugh?

Just put yourself in the audience and when would you laugh?

That's a hard question because sometimes you just go, oh no, you realize you wouldn't like you either.

Yeah, but like you're in the business of trying to kind of like Inception, get inside somebody and, and change their chemistry.

It's a good thing to be really compelled with what people think about you.

And a lot of times when I watch stand-ups, I'm just like, you got to make these choices.

Am I going to go with what you think I am?

Am I going to go against what you think I am?

But either one of those choices, you know, the prerequisite is to know how people receive you and then you can make these choices.

But if you don't know who you are and if you don't know how they probably feel about you, You're kind of lost.

You're in a sandstorm.

So I think that's a, that's a good compulsion to have is to want— maybe the same could be true if you want people to not like you.

There are those provocateurs that like that sort of stuff, but both people, it's just both ends of the same spectrum.

I'm interested in how people feel.

I care about how they feel and I'd like to be in charge of how they feel.

That's— oh, there you go.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

That's different.

And I, I'm noticing this now.

This is going to sound everybody like I'm looking way too close, but like most of my,

forget standup for a second, but just my friends, but standups in particular.

I'll text them during their special and go, oh, you used silence really well right there, or whatever.

I'm looking at every little subtlety and I've been thinking about you like, because how, how is what you're good at doing translate to someone listening to this today?

Right.

And so I watch your comedy.

You're hilarious.

You're deep.

But I'm going to tell you, there's a little thing you do.

I don't know if you know you're doing it or not.

You sometimes laugh at your own jokes before you've said the punchline.

Yeah.

And you smile a lot on stage.

Not everybody does that.

I think the best salespeople that I— I was going to make the same point.

Were you?

Yeah.

It's a good idea.

Do you do that on purpose?

Is it who you are?

Because like the people I trust the most that are trying to sell me something, I see them warm and smiling and I'm almost I'm almost smiling back and nodding at them before they've

even asked me for whatever the order is.

Yeah, yeah.

Your comedy, or just like who you are on stage?

No, no, it— well, I think it is who I am, but that doesn't mean it's authentic.

Like, if people said, I'll give you $10 million, don't laugh during your set, of course I could not laugh, you know what I mean?

And of course there are shows that I'm doing that I don't feel like laughing.

Often a special taping is one of those times, like you're not really feeling super chill, uh, but you're trying to mimic— the whole thing is trying to lean towards an aspect of you

that is naturally occurring but might not be the majority shareholder of your personality at that moment.

But I'm trying to— I'm trying to control how they feel.

I'm trying to control how I feel.

And it's a benevolent manipulation.

Usually manipulation sounds bad, right?

But if I want you to Come to my show and every— a lot of Samsons I know feel this way.

I want you to go on vacation.

I want all your problems to be way, way, way far away.

I want you to finally put all that down and feel like you're 6 years old again and you're getting tickled.

I want you to be joyful and light.

I'm going to use every tool I have.

Is— are some of them less than 100% authentic?

You're goddamn right.

I'm— I— it's the hardest thing in the world, in my opinion, to make people laugh for an hour, an hour and 15 minutes.

It's really hard.

It's energetically draining.

It's mentally demanding.

So Chappelle, I learned that— I, I wouldn't say I ripped it from Chappelle, but, you know, steal from the best.

He does that thing where he hits the mic on the mic.

Yes.

Yeah, I move the mic away from my face.

That's a way of cueing to them because my wife told me, she's like, people want to laugh, but sometimes they're worried they're going to miss something.

So you move the mic away to say, I'm not talking right now.

And then the laughing or the smiling is another way to indicate that, like, I'm showing you the sheet music.

My part, my part, your part, your part.

You're not just laughing when the chemical happens, you're laughing when the chemical happens and You feel like it's appropriate in the show to laugh.

You're looking for your cue.

And that's why Chappelle cues people.

That's why I'm cueing people.

And it's funny, I remember reading something about salesmen that they would nod their heads.

Someone would open the door and they'd already be subtly nodding their head.

So when they say like, do you have a moment to talk to us today?

The person would be more inclined to say yes.

Now that's manipulation.

Comedy, entertainment, storytelling, music, sales, teaching, it's all manipulation.

I'm manipulating you.

You're manipulating me.

Well, you know, I don't mean it in a bad way.

We're cueing each other.

That's what a good conversation like this is.

The tone of my voice is telling you, and now I'm winding down.

That's a manipulation.

And now I'm done.

See, now it's your turn.

Aren't I cueing you well, Ed?

You are cueing me perfectly.

And that's what you're doing.

Yes, Peter Benedict, very well done.

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There's nothing you do that I think transcends career or like the lane you're in.

And most people don't know.

They don't even— they're not even conscious of this when they're watching a special or they're just going to a club.

You're up there when you— by the time you get to your special, you have been telling most of those jokes for a year.

Yeah.

Over and over.

You're working out the bit, the sequence, the line, the, the tonality, the pacing, all of it.

But what you have to do is tell it like you've never told it before, like it's the first time.

And I don't think most people that are watching stand-up appreciate that skill set.

And here's why I ask it.

I think like as a dad or like as a salesperson or a leader in a company, it's the 19th time you've covered your core values or your mission or your pitch.

And what happens to most people is they fatigue on saying it and it sounds like you've said it before.

Rather than being the only time you've ever said that line, the only time you've asked for that close, the only time you've sold the vision of the company to somebody.

Yeah, you do that first.

That is right.

Right.

You've had that bit a year.

You've been sitting on that bit for a while.

Yeah.

No, that's a great insight.

Really.

I'm thrilled with that question because it's underreported.

And I think every comedian is different.

When I was starting, everybody was like, you got to perform every night.

And I think at the beginning I did have to perform every night.

It was about reps.

It was just about muscle memory.

It was just about doing it.

And then at a certain point, I don't even know what it was, it might have been 15 years and 10 years in, I don't know, around there, I started going like, I'm a fatigue guy.

Like, if I tell the joke too many times, it'll die.

It, it, like, it literally will stop working because it turns out— talk about how you're coming off— the joke is how you feel about it.

And you lost the feeling.

So I'm getting mad about trumpets or whatever, or electric eels.

Like, I have all these silly jokes where the joke is that I'm using the tonality of Bill Burr, who might be ranting against politics or something.

I'm using that to talk about that there's a berry called boysenberries.

Like, that's the joke.

If I do boysenberries too many times, it'll dry up.

It's— I say it on stage.

I'm talking to myself on stage all the time.

I go, I don't want this to feel like a job.

So when I start, I usually do grab-ass riffing, doing a bit I wasn't planning on doing, uh, all in the first 15-20 minutes.

And if it doesn't work, in quotes, meaning it doesn't get like a smashing laugh, I'll straight up tell them, guys, this is an excuse to hang out.

Like, you're waiting for the hot joke, you're waiting for the big line, It's this.

I go, this is your life.

That sounds like you're lame, doesn't it?

Because this is your life.

Yes.

Be, be here.

Like, join me now.

Like, you're in this crowd.

You'll never be in this crowd again.

Look at the person next to you and go, goodbye forever.

Like, this is it.

And like, it's establishing again a benevolent authority.

I'm saying I'm not here to ask you if these jokes are funny.

I'm going to assume the position of someone who's going to be the authority on what's funny for your sake.

It's like, I'm going to land the plane.

I know Bill Cosby is a troubling person.

He had that line where he said the pilot can't get on the PA and say, I'm going to try to land the plane.

You say, I'm going to land the plane.

Or you actually say even better, we're going to be touching down at 11:15.

Like, that's, that's how sure I am.

And that's what I'm doing.

So even if a joke doesn't work, you demonstrate, um, you're calm, right?

I'll give you an example.

I was just in San Francisco and I was trying to say the word bike, but I said— there's a racial slur that sounds like bike, and I actually said that word.

And the whole play is straight— I'm not an alpha in most of my life— straight alpha dog.

I don't give— I don't give a shit.

No one here thinks I said that.

I didn't even get worked up.

I was just like, oh no, did I say it?

And like, I just kind of moved through it because they're taking your cue.

Now, this was San Francisco.

It's a very with-it place.

We don't want— I don't want words like that either, of course.

I'm just saying, yeah, they're looking to you.

Am I sweating?

Am I nervous?

Am I apologizing?

Am I going, shut the fuck up, I made it?

You know?

And, and they go, oh, my wife was in the crowd.

She's like, everyone's like, thank God this guy's landing the plane.

Now let me answer your question better because Sorry, a lot of talking.

There's— it's great.

It's a really good area, right?

So how do you not— the whole job is to go out.

I have a mantra.

I go, they haven't heard it before.

I have two mantras.

One is, it's not about the words, it's about the connection.

It's about the space between the words.

And they haven't heard it before.

That usually means slow down and trust yourself.

You thought this was funny.

Give them a chance.

They haven't heard it before.

But the key is you want to be— I believe this is Louis C.K.

said this, like, the right side of the brain dictates, the left side of the brain communicates.

If I catch myself doing the album, that means orating the bit, I'll stop.

I'll stop it and fuck it up on purpose or change it or bring someone into it or say like, I'm sorry, this sucks.

Like, you want to nudge yourself into the part that's communicating the joke.

So another way to do that that's less disruptive than stopping or less jarring, say it in a way you haven't said it before.

Say it in a crazy way.

And now you have to defend this weird— you said dogs are shit, whatever it is.

It doesn't have to be a hot take.

And then the other key, I learned this from my friend Isaac Witte when I was opening for him.

He was like, go out of order.

So there's nothing better to keep you in the communication side of your brain.

There's nothing better to keep you vital and fresh than to go, I always open with this.

Guess what?

We're not even going to do it tonight.

Let's open with the middle.

Let's close with the beginning.

Let's drop that.

Let's open mic it here.

Because sometimes what they need is the energy of you trying something that's not quite done.

Maybe they don't want Home Run Derby.

Maybe they want to see you.

Garry Shandling had this great line.

They go, no one cares what Elvis plays.

They want to see Elvis.

So just be Elvis.

Don't be like, oh, and then I got to do Fools Rush In and then I got to do Blue Christmas.

Like, get the fuck out of here.

Be Elvis, right?

That's how you stop from— you guys, I hope you're all listening to this the way that I do.

Like, I'm thinking about stand-up, but I'm thinking about like me as a dad for the 9 millionth time telling my kids to be smart, changing up the sequence.

Not like it's— I just be smart, you know, like, I, you know, yeah, as a leader or a salesperson, that it doesn't sound like you've done it a bunch of times.

It's so interesting you just said this.

I, I gave a talk yesterday, and it was a much smaller venue than I'm used to, you know, and it was like gonna be awkward.

It almost like took me back to like my beginning of speaking.

It was at like an okay hotel with like a handheld mic, and like, you know, wasn't big arena or whatever.

And I was worried I was going to mail it in like a lot of you mail in your Monday morning sales meeting with your team or your board meeting or whatever.

I thought, I'm going to mail.

And so I did exactly what you said.

There's certain things I'm going to get to, but I took some risks.

I know I got risk stuff that's going to work anyway.

Get your heart going.

It's scary.

Do it scary.

Change the sequence up.

And I kind of like made fun of myself with it.

I had fun with it.

I think that's— and the other thing you said that I just want to make sure I highlight to everybody is assume the position of the authority.

Yeah, for them.

For them.

Them, right?

It's a kindness.

It's a kindness.

Yeah, it's— that was— bro, it puts everybody at ease.

But you know what's funny?

So I have a 7-year-old.

If you catch me looking, I'm just making sure she's not coming in.

Sometimes I'll be reading to her or something, and I'm like, I catch myself doing the same thing.

This isn't a stand-up thing.

What I'll— I go like, I'll be reading, we're reading The Baby-Sitters Club, uh, the— there's a graphic novel, it's quite good.

That's why I mention it, in case people are looking for something for a 7-year-old.

But sometimes I get overwhelmed, like these chapters are long sometimes, and, and the reading timer goes off, but it's like when I'm one page into the next chapter, so we have to finish

it.

And I'll catch myself just being like, I just want to be done.

And it's just that moment of consciousness, just that moment of awareness like you had in the small hotel.

Where you go like, wait, I'm stuck.

I'm trying to be done snuggling with my daughter, reading her a book.

She's going to be 16 and won't want— maybe won't want to hang out with me.

Like, it's like, snap out of it, become aware.

And I'll say to myself, sometimes my eyes— it's literally just my eyes are tired, and I just go, just this page, just this frame, just this.

And I'll look at my girl.

She must think I'm— I don't know, she's used to it, so she's probably not thinking I'm crazy, but I'll look at her and I'll whisper and I'll be like, hey,

here we are, or something like that.

Just something to slap me out of it.

I'm dragging ass through the babysitters club, and it's not because, oh, I should be.

It's like, no, this is my life too.

This isn't— this isn't the path.

You ever do that?

Like, all suffering is going, when I'm done with this, I can watch Task with my wife.

Yes.

Well, you're doing this right now, dipshit, so do it.

You're in this shitty hotel right now, so do it.

And by the way, couldn't relate harder.

I— my career is littered with gigs where you're just like, I was just at Radio City, you know what I mean?

Now, and now I'm in the Hyatt or whatever it is.

Yes.

And there's a Eckhart Tolle quote where he says, how you feel right now is how you feel about your life.

This is your life.

It's not looking back or looking forward, it's just this.

And that is really— it can be— it can make me go like, okay, so let's enjoy this.

Let's enjoy this, just this page of The Babysitters Club.

I am, uh, so with you, bro.

I think a lot of people that achieve— like, I've been addicted to the next moment all of my life, not the one I'm in.

I'm gonna do the next one.

Let me get through this one, and then I'm gonna get to that one.

And it's something I really— a little thing I've been doing lately.

I just said this like an hour ago to somebody.

I was like,

I become more of like a witness to myself and I become more like a witness to the moment.

It kind of snaps me into awareness, like, I want to witness this moment.

And for some reason with me, that term, that way of thinking, like, causes me to be present.

By the way, I also was thinking the other day about like, I had a good friend come down, spent the last couple of days with me.

We were playing some golf and I'm like, all my friends fit a certain profile.

They're very different than me.

I'm actually really introverted.

Me too.

Are you really?

Really?

It's interesting.

A lot of people on stage are, and I'm like super introvert.

So I have a lot of like very charismatic, very extroverted, very life of the party friends, which makes all the lifting very easy on me, right?

I can kind of be— they all like, or they're very similar.

But the other thing that they, they all do is they're— I like them because they're fully present with me.

They have a presence about them.

All of my really close friends do that I lacked when I was young with people.

People that, like, it's the thing I cherish the most in other people.

All right, I gotta ask again.

I've been dying to ask you this.

So for what your specific faith beliefs, I'm— it's no one's business, although I know that you have it.

I've read about you that, like, you thought when you were young you might be a youth pastor.

Blows my way if that's accurate.

But you have this thing you do, bro.

I know you know what I'm going to ask you, but it, like, I've watched it probably 50 times and probably sent it, no exaggeration, no exaggeration, to probably 300 people over the last

year.

Wow.

And it's this notion of, you know what I'm going to ask you.

So what do we come from, right?

God or nothing.

We come from God or nothing.

And like, whatever your faith belief is specifically, you guys all know that I'm a Christian, but like, set that aside just for a second.

Like, just belief in something greater than oneself, right?

Like Would you explain that concept?

Like, take them through this God or nothing thing, because it's like unreal.

Yeah, well, it's actually the spirit with which I wrote that joke was to say we're all in the same boat.

I was like, we all, we think it's like one side, uh, atheists and one side theists, right?

Um, I have issues with both sides.

Way more often I'll meet an atheist, uh, I don't want to say more often, I'm just saying Very often I'll meet an atheist and I'll, I'll find a way into talking about spirituality that

we vibe with.

A lot of times the people that I'll bump up against are people that are really much more rigid in their beliefs.

That's going to be a religious person.

So I am not on one of these sides.

I'm just saying

we're on the same side.

It's all, it's all the same choice.

You either think God created the universe or you think nothing created the universe.

But what are we really talking about?

It's in both cases it's something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph, and science can't prove, right?

And the part— I'm going a little out of order, I haven't done this joke in a while— the part that people make fun of, the nothing people make fun of the God people and they say God

doesn't exist.

And I'm like, sure, but you know what definitely doesn't exist is nothing.

Like, that's the defining characteristic of nothing.

Like, can we please just look at this idea that nothing Nothing, which we can't even find in the universe, erupted into everything.

So something that we can't find existed and spontaneously erupted into everything.

That's a magical nothing.

That's incredible.

And the real, the real like thing that made me feel like I was on to something, I go, ask the nothing people what happens when you die.

They'll tell you nothing.

You go into nothing.

And I go, you mean you merge back with your creator?

I go, that's heaven, bitch, is what I say.

So, but when— what you see, what I'm trying to do there is I go, same side, same side.

Something unknown is doing something we know not what, right?

We don't know what it is.

And my God is no thing.

It's not a thing.

It's not an object.

The God And I like the word God because it's a good placeholder.

I say God is the name of the blanket we put over the mystery to give it a shape.

That's what Barry Taylor from AC/DC said.

And I joke, why didn't I learn that in church?

Why am I learning this from Barry Taylor, the road manager for AC/DC, who I've met actually?

Turns out he's a mystic.

He's a groovy guy.

But so God is— I like the word God.

That works for me.

It's easier than saying a metaphor for a mystery.

It has more juice.

There's something about reclaiming it too that has a lot of power for me.

But,

um, where was I?

You spend a lot of time— well, you were— I like that I blanked.

I, I, I hope everyone replays that last thing.

It's the best bit for me in the last 20 years of comedy.

Oh, thank you.

It is the best bit.

And, um,

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How much time do you spend?

Now we're being serious with one of the funniest people in the world, but like, how do you, do you spend a lot of time on that?

Like I do, like what do I really believe?

Like,

what I mean, what I say when I really believe, like the depth of what I believe,

getting clear on it.

Strengthening it, questioning it.

I like, I like questioning what I believe.

Like, I, it's like, I'm, I'm sort of weird, and maybe I'm even morbid.

Like, I think a lot about death.

Like, it makes me feel more alive when I do it, and that this thing I'm doing right now matters in this moment.

You, you seem to me like you're real funny, but you seem like a pretty,

pretty serious dude.

Do you think about those things?

Do you know what you believe, or are you like still working on what you believe?

What's— it's a little bit unfortunate is that I feel like more and more I do feel like I can articulate what I believe.

And what's unfortunate about that is I do try to maintain some, of course, I don't know.

And we still have experiences and intuition that we're like, it's something I don't know.

I don't think my mind can perfectly articulate it.

It's like, if I speak of it, I'm a fool.

And if I'm silent, I'm a coward.

So you're just like, I'm going to speak about it and it's not going to be right.

In fact, one of the times I think I'm farthest from it, from the truth, is sometimes when I'm talking about it.

That's something that I've noticed.

I know exactly what you mean.

You know what I mean?

So my

hope, I'd say my practice, something that I'm trying to work on is people ask me about this and I'm like, is it possible to just keep one foot in the pool while I talk about it?

It's really tricky because I go into my head.

And I start trying to like lay out like a metaphysical argument.

But what I like to say in times like this, or what I'm compelled to say now, is I think God is awareness.

I think there's only one awareness, and I think that's what Jesus was pointing us to.

And I think one of the points of life is to remember that we belong to each other and to help each other.

As my, as my homie Ram Dass said, walk each other home.

Just because— not to be right conceptually, but to be rid of fear and to not— and to rid ourselves of hate and othering.

That's— I think that's why these things matter.

Well, that's awesome.

Do you ever pray, like, before you go on stage if you're scared or nervous?

I say,

"It's just us cats." I like to say that because in my belief, This is sort of like God's dream.

That's one way I would, I would quickly explain this.

Like, we're all in the mind of God.

So when I catch myself being nervous, it's because I'm believing that these things, these people in the audience, are other than myself.

But if I can own the idea that we're all the same thing, that there's nobody in the other boat, that it's just us cats, that helps me calm down.

So that's not a prayer per se.

But it's me trying to remember.

I say this all the time, Ed, but maybe you'd like it.

In the prodigal son, right, all he does is remember that he's the man's father.

And there's nothing he could do to be less the man's son or more the man's son.

So he's already the man's son.

And I feel that way about all of us.

We already belong to this one thing.

So if I can go out and recognize, it's more like recognize, that it's just us.

It's just play.

It's just a dance.

It's just an excuse to hang out.

It's just an excuse to love.

Just an excuse to remember.

Because when you laugh, you're not really there.

We're all kind of empty, so we can really have a good chance at merging together.

That makes me less nervous.

Wow, man, that's so good.

I mean, you must experience that talking to thousands of people.

Sometimes you got that feeling like, oh wow, we're all in the pocket together.

Yeah, well, I know this.

The part that I definitely relate to is the part of if— and there are times where, like, I'm separate from them and I've made it about me, like they think of me or how well I'm doing,

or do they think I'm incredible, or am I killing this right now?

Typically I suck,

but when I am connected with them,

I feel like they feel that we're connected when I, when I give that sense.

And when I don't, I suck.

And so, well, that's, that's wholeness, right?

So holy is a derivative of, of wholeness.

So the idea of wanting to be like a show being a holy thing is because you came in as Ed, you sat in an audience, you merged with a performer, it became a show.

Like, we all became a show.

Like, that is dropping yourself off at the door.

That's part of the the fun of it.

You know, you're just saying that.

I was thinking that's what a great leader does in a house, in their home.

That's what a great leader does in a business.

I wish the leaders of either of the two parties did that politically anymore, like trying to make it us instead of them and me.

And by the way, I think both parties do that.

But I, I just, I also like, I like what you said earlier when you're on stage and you go, yeah, this isn't working.

I would love one of our leaders at one point to go, hey, I screwed up.

I know.

I'm sorry.

And we don't have an allowance for that.

You know, it's not culturally— we don't.

I have friends.

So my friend who I used to go down— you said you were in Laguna.

I'd go and hang out with Rob Bell, and he was a pastor, and he's a great man.

I know who he is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I used to talk to him.

I was just like, I just don't know why a pastor can't get up and be like, I woke up and had a lot of doubt today.

Yeah, or I just, I just don't believe it today.

I know, I'm depressed.

I like— they become like, not everywhere, but a lot of times pastors and politicians become like corporate logos or something.

It's like you're Mickey Mouse or you're Coca-Cola.

You have to be fizzy, you have to be bubbly, you have to be sweet.

Like, that's the job.

Yeah.

And, and when I see a politician, like, remember when Howard Dean was like, yeah, and we were like Fuck this guy.

Like, that sucks.

We're so binary.

We're like, you're either cool or you're not.

So they become the most, like, studied.

It's almost sociopathic.

Like, they have to be like, everything they do.

Hillary Clinton has hot sauce in her bag.

Is anyone buying this?

But that's just their job.

I actually feel bad.

I'm like, it sucks that to get votes you have to pretend you had Cholula in your bag.

You look like saltines.

You don't have Cholula in your bag.

But that's what every politician, it seems, and every pastor has to play the part of a pastor.

And it's like a 24-hour role.

And that sucks.

That's why I think it's really fun to be a comedian.

And I can— I feel free to say anything.

And I think it makes it more interesting that I choose to be like, hey, let's talk about this.

I don't have to.

I do totally, too.

I think it's gutsy.

And it's interesting.

Like, I'll even catch flak from people from today where I said Sometimes I question what I believe.

To me, like, even those of you that are deeply religious, like, well, if you have a relationship with someone or something, these relationships go through this.

That's how they grow.

If you're questioning it, if there's never some strife, if there's never any doubt in your relationship, it doesn't grow any stronger.

So anyway, I want to get completely deep, but I think it's actually a healthy thing to have that.

The separate that I wanted to ask you earlier, because you said it earlier, and I'm really— I really like, like dig in on this.

He said, when I was starting out, was I like in the top 3 at the open mic night?

And then, you know, when I was in the clubs, size clubs, am I in the top 3 there or whatever?

How much of that is good?

And then when is it bad?

Like, do you— you see Bill Burr blowing up or Sebastian blowing up, and even in life and business, it's like people are really good friends with people, and then it feels like until

your success threatens them.

Or people have this belief that like, if Joe's doing really well in business, he's taking part of the pie that I could have had, I'm going to do less.

So they almost root against.

So how much of that, like in your world, like are you, there's got to be a little bit of you that's competitive.

Like, hey, I want to be regarded as great and I'd love to fill up an arena at the same time.

So are you, do you find yourself, a little bit too competitive?

When should that stop?

You get the question.

Yeah, I— it's interesting, this has been coming up this week in other conversations as well, even admitting to you that when I was an open micer, that I wanted to be— let's, let's,

you know, cut the crap— I wanted to be the best one.

I didn't want to be in the top 3.

I wanted to be the best one.

Um, you know, and part of my strategy as a nice person, uh, and not meaning like I thought about it, but like I wouldn't say something something like that.

But even that is to be like, I'm also going to be the nicest person here.

I'm going to win that as well.

So there's all sorts of competition going on.

What, what came to mind is, uh, Neal Brennan is a dear friend of mine, and he had this, uh, he's great.